what commands given to go over the top?

[sneakyimp]

I was hoping someone might tell me what commands would be given to front-line British assault troops going over for an assault. I would imagine you'd at least have STAND TO perhaps followed by FIX BAYONETS but I was hoping to get as accurate an idea as possible. I've seen a movie here or there where such orders might be given as "company stand to" and "company will fix bayonets."

 

Can anyone tell me all orders given to roust troops from their dugouts to prepare for an rapid assault across no man's land?

[stripeyman]

'I've seen a movie'      If one takes anything from a movie then its best to be interested in something else.............

Movies are usually utter tripe.

[TEW]

Officers would be in dugouts so something like come on chaps drink up.

TEW

[Skipman]

"Fix'em, and then we'll go."

 

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/forensic-lip-reader-recovers-the-words-of-those-who-fought-at-the-somme.285457/

 

Mike

Edited 8 May , 2019 by Skipman

[Ron Clifton]

3 hours ago, stripeyman said:

'I've seen a movie'      If one takes anything from a movie then its best to be interested in something else.............

Movies are usually utter tripe.

I suspect that the "movie" in question may have been the final episode of Blackadder Goes Forth. I think that (as shown in that episode) the signal to go over the top was normally given by whistle, rather than a spoken command which might not have been so easily heard. There were also cases where men actually went into No Man's Land under cover of darkness, sometimes cutting wire as they went. For these men to be told to stand up and charge, either a whistle signal or a Very light would have had to have been used.

 

Ron

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear sneakeyimp,

I would imagine the signal could well have been a sharp blow of the whistle by the Officer in charge (who was 'In the know' regarding stepping-off time).

Apropos: I attach Before and After photos of my grandfather, an Australian Imperial Force Officer (W. F. Lindsay, MC)...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[sneakyimp]

On 08/05/2019 at 09:34, Skipman said:

"Fix'em, and then we'll go."

 

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/forensic-lip-reader-recovers-the-words-of-those-who-fought-at-the-somme.285457/

 

Mike

 

Good Lord this brought tears to my eyes! I saw Peter Jackson's doc, which used this technique, and loved it so much.

 

I really appreciate the responses. Of course agree that movies tend to be tripe, that's why I'm here asking you folks.

 

So summarize the responses, the consensus is that formal commands were likely not used immediately prior to the attack. The troops would likely have been informed of the attack earlier and the order at the actual moment of attack would be an informal command to fix bayonets (e.g., "fix em up lads," ad lib) and then a sharp blast on the trench whistle.

 

Thanks, everyone! Any additional responses welcome and appreciated!

 

[Gunner Hall]

I appreciate that I may be preaching to the converted,  but  as you say, it’s fair to say that formal commands were not used immediately prior to the attack.  I remember a training exercise where the command “Clag yer gullies on and let’s get into ‘em “  was given.  (7^th L.I. a unit formed largely from miners around Horden and Blackhall, County Durham). 

The famous Blackadder scenario,  probably,  though certainly mine above, - misses out the “Orders for a deliberate attack”  which were issued some time before.   I won’t bore you with the details but these were very comprehensive.   Maps, terrain models, - the whole shoot.  Every last man involved in the attack was involved,  and all had the opportunity to ask questions if they needed clarification.   Even the “Orders for a quick attack” where a target of opportunity was to be exploited - were just as comprehensive.

Naturally as soon as contact was made,  all these plans, went to b@gg@@y.   (To paraphrase von Moltke. )

[squirrel]

One account of the 18th County of London battalion at the battle of Loos gives the following: “London Irish, up an over!”

Who said it and how many heard it is not recorded.

[Bernard_Lewis]

The words of Sgt Dick Lyons (Swansea Battalion, 14th Welsh) on 10 July 1916 at Mametz Wood:

 

"...our boys remained quietly waiting with fixed bayonets, five cartridges in the magazine, one in the breach and two bombs each...at 4.05 a.m. precisely our colonel [JH Hayes], who was waiting about fifty yards in advance of our position took off his steel helmet and, as the artillery raised its fire to another part of the wood, he gave a movement with his helmet to get the first line to advance..." He repeated this several times so as to get each wave moving.

 

CAUTION: it is likely that the trench the men left was rudimentary (having been recently dug out) but this is how Hayes handled matters. Of the 676 men who took part in the attack, over 100 were killed and 300 or so wounded (some by splinters of wood from the trees.) A black day for Swansea. 

 

Bernard

[sneakyimp]

12 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

I appreciate that I may be preaching to the converted,  but  as you say, it’s fair to say that formal commands were not used immediately prior to the attack.  I remember a training exercise where the command “Clag yer gullies on and let’s get into ‘em “  was given.  (7^th L.I. a unit formed largely from miners around Horden and Blackhall, County Durham). 

The famous Blackadder scenario,  probably,  though certainly mine above, - misses out the “Orders for a deliberate attack”  which were issued some time before.   I won’t bore you with the details but these were very comprehensive.   Maps, terrain models, - the whole shoot.  Every last man involved in the attack was involved,  and all had the opportunity to ask questions if they needed clarification.   Even the “Orders for a quick attack” where a target of opportunity was to be exploited - were just as comprehensive.

Naturally as soon as contact was made,  all these plans, went to b@gg@@y.   (To paraphrase von Moltke. )

 

What on earth does "clag your gullies on" mean? Is that referring to bayonets?

 

Ahhh, von Moltke. Is that from the Newcastle translation? I'm a Yank, so your UK dialects might as well be Greek to me.

 

You folks are the best. I truly appreciate these anecdotes.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

What on earth does "clag your gullies on" mean? Is that referring to bayonets?

Translated to English - attach (stick) your bayonet (large knife) on

https://englandsnortheast.co.uk/geordie-dictionary-f-h/

 

Quote

Ahhh, von Moltke. Is that from the Newcastle translation? I'm a Yank, so your UK dialects might as well be Greek to me. 

It is to anyone who doesn't live around here (I live just across the river from Newcastle) - go 20-30 miles at most in any direction and it's a different dialect again.

 

Craig

[Gunner Hall]

Regarding the local accents,  not many years ago,  an "expert"  tied down the Yorkshire Ripper" hoaxer to a few streets  of one council estate in Sunderland.  Total baloney of course.  He was out by 600 yards.  Pathetic.    I thank ss002d6252  for the fine translation.   For the benefit of sneakyimp and other unfortunates who may not be of this blessed Isle,  The Yorkshire Ripper was a low rent Ted Bundy, who spawned lots of hoaxes.  One,- "Wearside Jack"  sent the police several  taunting cassette tapes.

 

 

[Radlad]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 19:49, Bernard_Lewis said:

The words of Sgt Dick Lyons (Swansea Battalion, 14th Welsh) on 10 July 1916 at Mametz Wood:

 

"...our boys remained quietly waiting with fixed bayonets, five cartridges in the magazine, one in the breach and two bombs each...at 4.05 a.m. precisely our colonel [JH Hayes], who was waiting about fifty yards in advance of our position took off his steel helmet and, as the artillery raised its fire to another part of the wood, he gave a movement with his helmet to get the first line to advance..." He repeated this several times so as to get each wave moving.

 

CAUTION: it is likely that the trench the men left was rudimentary (having been recently dug out) but this is how Hayes handled matters. Of the 676 men who took part in the attack, over 100 were killed and 300 or so wounded (some by splinters of wood from the trees.) A black day for Swansea. 

 

Bernard

 

Now that surprises me!  I think there is possibly some confusion over interpreting his words unless they were armed with something other than SMLEs. NINE " cartridges in the magazine , one in the breech and two bombs each"  would make much more sense. Why load a single charger and strip one down for individual rounds?

Comments please, especially about interpreting welsh accents

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

Apropos accents: what happened to the Posh accent...?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Bernard_Lewis]

3 hours ago, Radlad said:

 

Now that surprises me!  I think there is possibly some confusion over interpreting his words unless they were armed with something other than SMLEs. NINE " cartridges in the magazine , one in the breech and two bombs each"  would make much more sense. Why load a single charger and strip one down for individual rounds?

Comments please, especially about interpreting welsh accents

Dick Lyons was Irish. He was a policeman in pre-war Swansea. This is what he wrote years after the battle. 

 

Bernard

[Gunner Hall]

15 hours ago, Radlad said:

 

Now that surprises me!  I think there is possibly some confusion over interpreting his words unless they were armed with something other than SMLEs. NINE " cartridges in the magazine , one in the breech and two bombs each"  would make much more sense. Why load a single charger and strip one down for individual rounds?

Comments please, especially about interpreting welsh accents

Different weapon, different war,  but we never filled a L1A1 SLR mag to its maximum 20.  Always 18.  I remember being told that this would ensure that the springs would't lock or lose their "springiness"   Not being familiar with the SMLE,  i have no idea if this was a factor.  R.

[Uncle George]

Lieutenant Ulrick Burke of the 2nd Battalion, the Devonshire Regiment remembers it thus:

 

”I shouted down the left and right of my sector, ‘Five minutes to go!’ Then four minutes, then three minutes, two minutes, half a minute, then, ‘Ten seconds . . . get ready . . . Over!’ “

 

Quoted in Joshua Levine’s ‘Forgotten Voices of the Somme’ (2008). 

[Uncle George]

From the same book: Private Frank Lindsay, 14th Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment remembers, “At the start, we were lined up ready to go over, at the whistle, at half seven.” 

 

And similarly, Private Arthur Pearson, 15th Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment recalls no verbal orders: “At zero hour, everybody climbed out of the trenches. Two platoons formed the first wave. Every man climbed out of the trench at the officers’ whistles, and not a man hesitated.”

[Uncle George]

I can’t find a great deal in Martin Middlebrook’s ‘The First Day on the Somme’ (1971). He writes of Private Richard King of the 10th King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry: “Before zero hour his platoon had gone out a few yards into No Man’s Land and lain down waiting for the signal to attack. Promptly at 7.30 A.M. the platoon commander blew his whistle and the K.O.Y.L.I.s rose.”