larfinboy Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 (edited) Hi, bought this off the Bay as a WWI Welch badge.. Cant find spot anything quiet like it on the Ooogle. So any ideas on its provinence please. Real collar ones seem silver, other "brass" ones are of a different design. No makers mark on the back. Edited 27 April , 2019 by larfinboy resized picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 Welsh Regiment and Royal Welsh Fusiliers from 1881 to 1920, when the name reverted to the archaic spelling 'Welch'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 Monmouthshire regiment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 That particular badge was used as the cap badge of the Monmouthshire Regiment other ranks. A similar badge (at first glance) was also a collar badge for the Welsh Regiment for a period, but later replaced by a different pattern entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larfinboy Posted 27 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2019 Thank you so much for your input/ Very helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 I don't think the Welsh ever used the pattern shown as a Collar, I have many variations for them and the Mons etc, but not one of that type. I shall check my references... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larfinboy Posted 27 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2019 Does the fact that it has the loops rather than the slider make a difference?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larfinboy Posted 27 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2019 The dreaded Wikipedia page for the Monmouthshire regiment has the same badge but with a slider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 (edited) Some of the Welsh Regiment collar badges that I was referring to. The officers’ pattern was the most close to the Monmouthshire’s badge, the other ranks pattern was more stunted. There were several tail variations and these can be seen in the large group image. Edited 27 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larfinboy Posted 27 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2019 so many variations - thanks for sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 1 hour ago, larfinboy said: Does the fact that it has the loops rather than the slider make a difference?? Depending on size, it does look more likely to be a collar badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 (edited) On 27/04/2019 at 16:00, larfinboy said: so many variations - thanks for sharing Yes, as well as tails there was variation with wings, that were either upright or set back in more of a curve. These all reflected differences in sealed patterns and manufacturers. Edited 28 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes, as well as tails there was variation with wings, that were either upright or set back in more of a curve. These all reflected differences in sealed patterns and manufacturers. The variations based on the battalion? Or is one going around the twist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 3 minutes ago, Scalyback said: The variations based on the battalion? Or is one going around the twist! The variations I was referring to related to the sealed pattern collar badges of the Welsh Regiment whilst it used the dragon badge for that purpose. Later on a variant of the Prince of Wales’s feathers and a motto scroll was adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The variations I was referring to related to the sealed pattern collar badges of the Welsh Regiment whilst it used the dragon badge for that purpose. Later on a variant of the Prince of Wales’s feathers and a motto scroll was adopted. Crossed wires. The Monmouth Dragon(as such) different between the battalions. I have plenty of Welsh insignia being the family regiment. Delving into the branch's of my family a few Monmouth guys and a Brecknock(Cefn did not serve in the war). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 (edited) My understanding of many years now is that the other ranks of the Monmouthshire Regiment battalions all wore the same configuration of dragon, but with just the 1st Battalion’s in white metal. Only the officers wore variants. The Brecknockshire Battalion of the SWB wore the exact same style of dragon in gilding metal, but with a title scroll beneath. Edited 27 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: My understanding of many years now is that the other ranks of the Monmouthshire Regiment battalions all wore the same configuration of dragon, but with just the 1st Battalion’s in white metal. Only the officers wore variants. The Brecknockshire Battalion of the SWB wore the exact same style of dragon in gilding metal, but with a title scroll beneath. Most informative. I'm sure at some point a platoon variation will appear......... The Brecknock connection surprised me, with my part of the family drilling down the road with the Welsh Regiment. Did they ever meet informally in uniform. The further you dig, the more questions arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larfinboy Posted 27 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2019 Thanks gents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scalyback said: Most informative. I'm sure at some point a platoon variation will appear......... The Brecknock connection surprised me, with my part of the family drilling down the road with the Welsh Regiment. Did they ever meet informally in uniform. The further you dig, the more questions arise. The SWB and RWF recruiting areas allocated in 1881 (never observed to the letter) had borders with England, whereas the Welsh Regiment did not. This meant that border Counties like Brecknockshire and Monmouthshire overlapped on all sides which affected recruitment. Both Counties former VF regiments were allocated to the SWB as VBs in the decades after the 1881 Reforms. Brecknockshire stayed loyal to this arrangement, but Monmouthshire, always an especially proud County, had never got over losing their nominal regular regiment, the 43rd Foot to Oxfordshire, and when the TF was formed in 1908, they were granted independent status with a discrete TF only regiment of 3-battalions. Monmouthshire was one of just a few Counties afforded such special status. The Heraldic Dragon of Wales, which is what the badge represents, was awarded to the SWB when it was granted its Welsh association via the Royal South Wales Borderers Militia, in 1881. The VBs subsequently became associated with the badge and retained it subsequently. Edited 27 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The SWB and RWF recruiting areas allocated in 1881 (never observed to the letter) had borders with England, whereas the Welsh Regiment did not. This meant that border Counties like Brecknockshire and Monmouthshire overlapped on all sides which affected recruitment. Both Counties former VF regiments were allocated to the SWB as VBs in the decades after the 1881 Reforms. Brecknockshire stayed loyal to this arrangement, but Monmouthshire, always an especially proud County, had never got over losing their nominal regular regiment, the 43rd Foot to Oxfordshire, and when the TF was formed in 1908, they were granted independent status with a discrete TF only regiment of 3-battalions. Monmouthshire was one of just a few Counties afforded such special status. Aware of the borders. Breckonshire had a detachment at Cefn Coed. Then part of Breckonshire but now fully part of Merthyr Tydfil. The Cefn drill hall a fve minute cycle or twenty minute walk to the Welsh TF drill hall in Merthyr. Family members close but not close.This is just my parental side. My maternal side creeps into Monmouth regiment territory but can not find any relative badged SWB(proper) on either side. One cheeky great grandfather went RWF........I can forgive him that I ironically went to a Corps and drilled at Brecon Barracks. A strange twist. Monmouth and Breckonshire battalions "independent" of any nominal regular regiment but part of "The Corps of The South Wales Borderers". Throw in some rifle heritage from the VB Times and it's all clear as mud. Further add in the South Wales Brigade that was a TF formation mainly Welsh regiment but including Brecknockshire regiment, you do wonder what empire building went on. Cambridgeshire being the other independent regiment who was the third? Not going near Montgomeryshire, that just gets even more confusing with SWB/RWF and other matters. Just some musing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Scalyback said: Aware of the borders. Breckonshire had a detachment at Cefn Coed. Then part of Breckonshire but now fully part of Merthyr Tydfil. The Cefn drill hall a fve minute cycle or twenty minute walk to the Welsh TF drill hall in Merthyr. Family members close but not close.This is just my parental side. My maternal side creeps into Monmouth regiment territory but can not find any relative badged SWB(proper) on either side. One cheeky great grandfather went RWF........I can forgive him that I ironically went to a Corps and drilled at Brecon Barracks. A strange twist. Monmouth and Breckonshire battalions "independent" of any nominal regular regiment but part of "The Corps of The South Wales Borderers". Throw in some rifle heritage from the VB Times and it's all clear as mud. Further add in the South Wales Brigade that was a TF formation mainly Welsh regiment but including Brecknockshire regiment, you do wonder what empire building went on. Cambridgeshire being the other independent regiment who was the third? Not going near Montgomeryshire, that just gets even more confusing with SWB/RWF and other matters. Just some musing. Herefordshire and Hertfordshire also had TF Regiments. The RWF bordered with the SWB in one area, and exchanged a former VF battalion, possibly Montgomeryshire, but I would need to check. Edited 27 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 Just now, FROGSMILE said: Herefordshire and Hertfordshire also had TF Regiments. That is not confusing on a list! Hereford I'm aware of the regular regiment being removed from the line. What happened around Herts for them to obtain TF only status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 1 minute ago, Scalyback said: That is not confusing on a list! Hereford I'm aware of the regular regiment being removed from the line. What happened around Herts for them to obtain TF only status? Also Huntingdonshire. I can’t recall what the rationale was for every one of the Counties concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 27 April , 2019 Share Posted 27 April , 2019 6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Also Huntingdonshire. I can’t recall what the rationale was for every one of the Counties concerned. No problems, something to read up on. No doubt Volunteer history has a hand in it. The sometimes strange backgrounds in non regular forces make for more interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 April , 2019 Share Posted 28 April , 2019 8 hours ago, Scalyback said: No problems, something to read up on. No doubt Volunteer history has a hand in it. The sometimes strange backgrounds in non regular forces make for more interesting reading. Yes, some unusual exceptions came out of the formation of the Territorial Force such as the retention of some Militia and the creation of units of Horse in Ireland that were outside the yeomanry. The rationale for all these oddities will be recorded somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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