Looking after War Graves in UK

[Terry Denham]

Tonight, in my capacity as chairman of the local parish council, I succeeded in making a miniscule contribution towards the work of CWGC. Can this be replicated elsewhere?

Whilst the Council was approving the month's accounts, I noticed an income item of £6 from the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for the upkeep of the three WW1 war graves in the cemetery which the Council owns (and I oversee). I had only seen this item once before about five years ago and it seems that we get this payment on that sort of time cycle.

I got the Council to agree to undertake the maintenance of the war graves free of charge in future and to return this £6. There was no opposition to this move from the rest of the Council and, in reality, we did nothing extra for the money in terms of maintenance than we would have done anyway. The graves are well maintained and cared for.

I feel a lot happier about this situation now as far as it concerns my local cemetery but, more importantly, how often is this happening with the other 12,363 cemeteries/churchyards in the UK? How much are they being paid to care for the war dead of two world wars and yet doing nothing extra?

Whilst I realise that maintenance costs money (so does issuing bank transfers for £6), I also feel that local councils/church authorities should undertake this work as a charge on the local community rather than expect recompense.

Does your local council/church charge CWGC for this service? Should they?

[ChrisC]

My local council, Leighton Buzzard in Bedfordshire has decided to "save" £4500 by not repairing or re engraving the 2 War Memorials in the town. Still... I'm sure the money will be well spent on something like a junket to one of our twinned towns for our hard working councillors.

[Guest Galatea]

I was in Witton Cemetery in Birmingham last week to visit my Father-in-Laws grave and was struck at the difference in care and maintnance of the small WWII area with about 20 graves in it compared to the rest of the cemetery.

The war graves plot was immaculate with newly turfed areas and trimmed low hedges surrounding the plot. The rest of the cemetery is frankly a tip compared with the war graves.

It makes me wonder if the CWGC maintains it themselves rather leaving it to the hapless efforts of the council.

[Terry Denham]

The answer will be that the council is paid by CWGC to maintain the area. (Money talks!).

[NIGEL]

Terry

My grandad George Green is buried at Witton Cemetery and it is in a terrible state, would you know how much it costs to do these things or who to contact?? and would you need permission?? and off who??

It is a private grave, as he was out of the Army when he died.

[Terry Denham]

Nigel

The care of a private grave is the responsibility of the lease holder - usually one of the next-of-kin. Therefore, tidying the grave is the relatives' responsibility.

However, the general maintenance of the cemetery is the responsibility of the cemetery owner - in this case the local authority. They are the ones to whom any request for improvement should be made.

It is all too common nowadays for this to happen - cash is diverted elsewhere (justifiably to worthy causes but often to paper pushing and other nonsense). Thankfully, in Sussex, we do not have any cemetery in such a poor state.

[NIGEL]

The grave is in a bad state Terry because it was hardly visited in 70 years.

I only knew of the man 10 years ago, and this year i hope i will be in a position to do something.

The reasons it was never visited, was because the family moved away and there attitude to someone who has gone. So you can imagine what state it is in.

But could you just march in and do the grave up??

[Terry Denham]

Nigel

Technically, only the relative who is the inheritor of the 'lease' can just march in and do up the grave. However, I can't see anyone objecting to another family member doing so.

If you (or anyone else) could not physically maintain the grave yourself due to distance etc, most councils will accept payment to undertake such work for you - or there are commercial companies which will maintain graves for a fee. Probably costly and not quite the same as doing it yourself.

Nobody is totally guilt free when it comes to grave maintenance. Here am I sitting in Sussex beavering away doing what I can for war grave occupants when I have not visited my parents' grave in Cheshire for many years. I dread to think what state it is in!

[Stephen White]

I was in Witton Cemetery in Birmingham last week to visit my Father-in-Laws grave and was struck at the difference in care and maintnance of the small WWII area with about 20 graves in it compared to the rest of the cemetery.

The war graves plot was immaculate with newly turfed areas and trimmed low hedges surrounding the plot. The rest of the cemetery is frankly a tip compared with the war graves.

It makes me wonder if the CWGC maintains it themselves rather leaving it to the hapless efforts of the council.

I was in the cemetery on Monday.The rest of the cemetery is in a truely shocking state compared to this area.

Sad to say,Terry is probably right,Money Talks !!

Stephen

[Stephen White]

Nigel

Technically, only the relative who is the inheritor of the 'lease' can just march in and do up the grave. However, I can't see anyone objecting to another family member doing so.

If you (or anyone else) could not physically maintain the grave yourself due to distance etc, most councils will accept payment to undertake such work for you - or there are commercial companies which will maintain graves for a fee. Probably costly and not quite the same as doing it yourself.

Nobody is totally guilt free when it comes to grave maintenance. Here am I sitting in Sussex beavering away doing what I can for war grave occupants when I have not visited my parents' grave in Cheshire for many years. I dread to think what state it is in!

Terry

I located the grave in question for Nigel about 12 months ago.I checked on it again on Monday of this week.The main problem is Massive subsidence,my quess is that the kerbs will need removing and the ground re-filling.With that amount of disturbance,what permision will be needed and from who ??.

Stephen

[John_Hartley]

Here am I sitting in Sussex beavering away doing what I can for war grave occupants when I have not visited my parents' grave in Cheshire for many years.

Ahha, Cestrian connections.

Should have realised - wot with you being such a civilised gent.

[Terry Denham]

Stephen

In this case I would contact the cemetery authority. They would certainly not let anyone undertake major landscaping work such as that you indicate. However, they may volunteer to do it for you if you make enough noise or allow a contractor to undertake the work.

John

Thank you for the accolade of 'Cestrian connection' but it will have to remain honourary. I am London born and bred (well it was actually in Essex when I was born) and moved to my adopted county of East Sussex twenty-one years ago.

My parents were even more London born and bred (Dad was a true Cockney from within the sound of Bow bells) but they moved to Cheshire when my father's firm relocated in 1975. They said that they had never met a more friendly bunch of people and they never missed London for a second.

They now rest, with my maternal grandmother, in Frodsham churchyard.

[NIGEL]

Get up there this week end Terry, you wouldnt like them to end up like this would you.???????? The one in the middle.

[Terry Denham]

Nigel

That is not as bad as I had imagined.

If you contact a monumental mason, they can put this right for you. The mason will contact the cemetery authority for the necessary clearance.

This degree of maintenance is the n-o-k's responsibility. Otherwise the cemetery looks well maintained by most standards.

[Jim Strawbridge]

Terry, Back to your original post. When I have visited CWGC maintained graves I have occassionally come across CWGC officers checking that the maintenance programme for which they pay is being upheld. Your committee returned the original £6 and offered to maintain the tidiness of the CWGC graves in the cemetery for free. My concern would be that if no payment is made then there is unlikely to be a visiting officer to check the quality of the maintenance. I know that whilst you are there the graves will always be properly maintained but one day, many years hence, you will be pushing up your own daisies, and grave maintenance may slip under a less caring committee. I appreciate that the graves still remain under CWGC care but can you confirm that a CWGC maintenance officer will still keep an eye on what you are doing as otherwise it might be wiser to take the £6 and then return it as a donation each time.

[Terry Denham]

Jim

It doesn't work like that.

The CWGC area inspectors have to inspect every war grave on roughly a three year cycle. They are not only looking for compliance with any maintenance agreement but also for condition of headstones etc (particularly the private graves where they have to decide if the name is still legible etc and whether it is a fitting memorial).

If an inspector sees an unkempt war grave, they will always contact the authority to request action (gentle persuasion is better that payment!). Therefore our four war graves will continue to be inspected no matter whether there is an agreement in place or not.

In our case the Council did not even know it had an agreement, did not know who CWGC were and didn't know what the money was for (no communication is on record from the Commission and the money just appears in the bank with no reference other than (IIRC) 'war graves'). As I say it arrives about every five years.

Naturally when I joined the Council, I put them straight! The Council has no need to do anything extra other than its normal maintenace to these war graves due to their location.

No panic, Jim. They are safe. And when it is my turn to lie next to them, I'll shout if the work is not done!

[bogarcher]

Terry

I am currently trying to finish off photographing the wargraves in Leicestershire.

There are 11 graves I cannot find or have found but have no headstone. Two of them are in the Welford road cem in Leicester. We have located the graves and are certain there has never been a headstone on either of them. If the graves are inspected every three years, how come nobody seems to be able to give me an answer as to why there is not a CWGC stone or a mention of the men on the graves. The CWGC were asked in the summer of last year and told us that both graves had headstones. They were asked again re the graves in the middle of November but we have still not had a reply. Surely the CWGC knows which of their graves has headstones and which have not and if there is no headstone the reason why. If the men are commemorated somewhere else, shouldnt it be on their records.

Mick

[Terry Denham]

Mick

I do not know the cemetery and so cannot comment on the actual circumstances and please do not take anything I say as a negative criticism of your grave searching abilities!

I see lots of queries where a grave 'cannot be found/is not there'. I have even had a couple of dozen in my own searches. In all cases but one the searcher was wrong including myself. The grave is there.

Often it can be in a totally illogical place, completely buried (I have had to rummage down an inch or two to uncover some kerb type memorials - re-covering them afterwards) or even the searcher is looking in the wrong cemetery (usually a separate cemetery now merged with another).

It is possible that the name is not mentioned on any remaining headstone having once been on a kerb or other separate device - now disappeared. Sometimes this would only be a first name.

I am not saying that any of these apply in your case but it would concern me that CWGC have told you that headstones exist - bearing in mind that these could take any form from a huge monument to a tiny stone cube. They hold a record of every grave's location usually with a plan indicating its exact spot and can describe the headstone to you - at least this has been so in every case I have known.

Now, if we assume for a moment that there is no headstone - why?

- It could have been removed recently and it is often difficult to tell.

- It could have never existed and the grave is a private one and the n-o-k have refused permission for a headstone to be raised. In such situations CWGC would probably try periodically to ask permission again.

- the local authority has refused permission as they are trying to eliminate headstones or the grave is a common grave with multiple burials.

- There is a 'Special Memorial' headstone erected elsewhere in the cemetery to commemorate the person.

Again, I am not saying that any of these apply in your situation as, in the UK, there are many problems for CWGC and new ones can crop up in specific locations. However, my money would be on them being there somewhere.

The one case which affected my searches where CWGC was wrong concerned a grave which was exactly where CWGC said it was but it was for the wrong man. They had been checking the wrong grave for eighty years. I located the right (unmarked) grave and a CWGC stone was erected. So it can happen.

If you would like to let me know the two names by email off-Forum, I'll see what I can find out for you.

[Terry Denham]

Following up the above query from Mick about seemingly missing headstones in Leicester...

Mick did indeed supply me the names of two casualties in Leicester (Welford Road) Cemetery who apparently had no form of commemoration at the cemetery. One grave had a headstone bearing only the name of another person and the second was in a totally unmarked grave. Both grave locations were confirmed as correct.

I followed up the query with CWGC and the answer just shows the problems faced when searching for war graves in the UK and those facing CWGC.

The first grave lacking the appropriate name (Densham) on the headstone had obviously been overlooked previously by CWGC's inspectors but, after a recent visit by the current inspector, a new CWGC headstone has been ordered and will be erected in due course.

The second casualty (Moore) did have a CWGC stone but it had been removed to facilitate an additional burial in the grave. However, the mason had not replaced it as he was supposed to! CWGC are now trying to track it down. Obviously it will be replaced if found or a new one ordered.

Both these examples are probably due to a breakdown in the system somewhere and would probably not have come to light had it not been for Mick's initial enquiries. Well done Mick!

If something does not look right, always enquire why!