Killed at Aubers Ridge

[Northern Soul]

As part of 8th Div, 1/RIR attacked at Aubers Ridge on May 9th, 1915; missing men therefore should be commemorated on the Le Touret Memorial.

So any ideas why this man is commemorated at Ploegsteert?

Name: PORTER, ALBERT

Initials: A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Rifleman

Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles

Unit Text: 1st Bn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 09/05/1915

Service No: 1865

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 9.

Cemetery: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

I don't know whether this is an exception - I don't have access to SD to identify other casualties and cross-check them with the CWGC database.

Andy.

[Ken Lees]

Andy,

It looks like an exception to me. All of my 'no known grave' 9th King's Liverpools from 9/5/15 are on Le Touret. and only 1917/18 deaths to 'my' battalion are on Ploegsteert.

It's a mystery.

Ken

[Paul Reed]

It is to do with geographical boundaries.

The Le Touret Memorial covers:

Geographically it covers an area enclosed in the north by the river Lys and a line drawn from Estaires to Fournes, and in the south by the former wartime boundary of the First Army at Grenay.

The Ploegsteert Memorial covers:

The memorial serves the area from the line Caestre-Dranoutre-Warneton to the north, to Haverskerque-Estaires-Fournes to the south, including the towns of Hazebrouck, Merville, Bailleul and Armentieres, the Forest of Nieppe, and Ploegsteert Wood. The original intention had been to erect the memorial in Lille.

The 8th Division attack fell in the geographic area covered by the Ploegsteert Memorial and thus the men who died there are commemorated on this memorial.

Thge 1/9th KLR were in the 1st Div at this time, and further along the line, and thus outside of this area - and so were commemorated on Le Touret.

[Ken Lees]

So, were all of the 8th Div missing men commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial?

Ken

[Paul Reed]

All the ones I have researched that died at Fromelles are. I suspect there are some overlaps; I know of a Royal Sussex soldier who died at Richebourg on 30th June 1916 who should be on Loos Memorial, but is in fact on Ploegsteert. So there are definite errors.

[Ken Lees]

Thanks Paul.

I've noticed errors in dates too, like the man of the 9th King's who is commemorated on the Menin Gate but if his date of death is recorded correctly (20th Sept 17) should be on Tyne Cot.

I suppose it's inevitable that the odd error should have been made when you consider the numbers involved.

Ken

[Aurel Sercu]

The Ploegsteert Memorial covers:

The memorial serves the area from the line Caestre-Dranoutre-Warneton to the north, to Haverskerque-Estaires-Fournes to the south, including the towns of Hazebrouck, Merville, Bailleul and Armentieres, the Forest of Nieppe, and Ploegsteert Wood. The original intention had been to erect the memorial in Lille.

Paul,

The following has nothing to do with Le Touret versus Ploegsteert Memorial, but it's just that I couldn't help noticing a handful of exceptions Ploegsteert Memorial vs. Menin Gate Memorial when researching that military operation on the east bank of the canal at Boezinge, 6-9 July 1915.

Most of the British troops who fell there (4th Div., 11th Bde) - there were 323 - and who have a known grave - approx. 100 -, are as you know buried at Talana Farm Cemetery, Boezinge. The names of the men who have no known grave are (and should be) on the Ypres Menin Gate Memorial. Yet there are 10 exceptions : 10 men of the 1/Somerset Light Infantry have their names on the Ploegsteert Memorial instead. And I really don't know why.

(No need to reply. Just pointing out a few odd exceptions on Ploegsteert Memorial. No doubt errors.)

Aurel

[Paul Reed]

Aurel - sorry, only just noticed this.

Another interesting error - one can only ask why? Maybe in records they were attached to another battalion that was in the sector covered by this memorial at the time of their death? Thomas Henry Bowley, who features in Walking The Salient is an example of this. He died with 2nd Border Regt near Kruiseek in October 1914 and should be on the Menin Gate. However, because in records he was attached to the Leicesters, he is only Ploegsteert as they were near Armentieres at this time.

[Aurel Sercu]

Another interesting error - one can only ask why? Maybe in records they were attached to another battalion that was in the sector covered by this memorial at the time of their death?

Paul,

I know that this is a possibility that should be taken into account in theory indeed. However, in the War Diaries and the Regimental History there is no mention of Somerset Light Infantry men attached to another battalion on that day.

Also : SDGW for 6-7 July 1915 gives the names of 35 Officers and O.R. killed.

Of those who have a known grave :

23 at Talana Farm Cemetery Boezinge (nearby),

2 DoW buried at Lijssenthoek Cem. Poperinge.

10 were missing and have no known grave. They are all on the Ploegsteert Memorial, none on the Menin Gate Memorial. So this must be an error.

Something else that confirms this is an error indeed : 3 of these 10 missing men were found by the Diggers (SLI badge identification). They died on the Canal bank site, and so should be on the Menin Gate Memorial.

Aurel

[Paul Reed]

Sorry Aurel - what I meant was that in official records, if these men had come to say, 1/SLI from the 3rd, a home based unit, then they might not have actually been noted down as having transferred to the 1st. If a clerk couldn't be bothered to do much work in the 20s, and another SLI battalion was in action elsewhere that day, they might have been erroneously reocrded as being elsewhere. If they are down in CWGC records as 1/SLI and still on Ploegsteert then one can only wonder!

[Medic7922]

Name: OSGOTHORPE, CHARLES

Initials: C

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers

Unit Text: 22nd (Tyneside Scottish) Bn.

Date of Death: 11/04/1918

Service No: 60282

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2.

Cemetery: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL

As you can see my great uncle is remembered on the Ploegesteert

memorial, unfortunatly I have been unable to find out much about him

or the battle in which he died, I know that he came from Bourne in Lincolnshire

and was first in the East Yorkshires.

Steve

[Paul Reed]

He died in the Battle of the Lys. From memory I think the Tyneside battalions of 34th Division were around Pont de Nieppe near Armentieres about this time.