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crackingbloke

Zeebrugge Raid Casualty Roll

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crackingbloke

Good Morning

Quite simple is there a Roll of casualties for the Zeebrugge Raid and if so where will I find it.

Thanks in advance.

Guy

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crackingbloke

Thank you very much for the link. I've a problem in as much as the man I am interested in and is listed as died of wounds was in fact killed in a German Air Raid. I really would like to find a list of wounded in an official publication.

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Keith_history_buff

Hi there, there is a list of the wounded in Paul Kendall's book. 

I am hoping he will post a response to this, as I believe he is publishing a new edition soon.

Are you able to share the name, rank/rating and service number of the individual, please?

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MaxD

 

2 hours ago, crackingbloke said:

I've a problem in as much as the man I am interested in and is listed as died of wounds was in fact killed in a German Air Raid

 

As a matter of interest -  do you have an "official" source for the fact that your man was killed in an air raid?

 

Max

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Keith_history_buff

Hello Guy,
I got a message from Paul. I did not know which specific book, therefore I asked a general question. He was able to respond by (1) confirming which specific book contained the information, and (2) whether a subsequent publication was coming out (not soon enough) which could contain said info.

It is hoped that this is recognised by the casual read of this threat as a question, and is not perceived to be a plug for a book or publicity. 

 

Quote

 The book which contains a list of Zeebrugge Raid casualties is in my first book on the topic, entitled ‘The Zeebrugge Raid 1918: The Finest Feat of Arms’, published by The History Press in 2008, which is still available to buy from Amazon. My third Zeebrugge Raid book should be published by Frontline Books towards the end of 2020 / early 2021.

 

 

If you are able to provide some more details on the identity of the 'the man I am interested in', the forum pals ought to be able to assist. I have some casualty info somewhere.

Alternatively, and if you have time to kill, you could consult the two casualty files for Zeebrugge that are kept at The National Archives, Kew. Posting the name here is likely to be quicker to get the answer that you desire.

Thanks

Keith

 

 

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crackingbloke

Many thanks to you all. I will be seeing a family member this weekend, I just want to check with them that it is OK for me to put his details 'out there'. I don't want to offend them and people can be touchy. The information you've already given me is a great help and with luck I will be able to give you the whole story very soon.

Guy 

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58 Div Mule

A group of medals was recently sold on eBay to a Marine killed in an air raid on London in May 1918

 

He's listed in the book ' With Full and Grateful Hearts' as serving with 4 Bn RM.

 

I had a look at ADM 159 which gives service with Chatham Div. No notation of service with 4 Bn.

 

Ian Castles' website gives details of the bomb that dropped on his home address. 

 

Died in in hospital some days after the raid.

 

Can't find confirmation of service with 4Bn.

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domwalsh
21 hours ago, crackingbloke said:

Many thanks to you all. I will be seeing a family member this weekend, I just want to check with them that it is OK for me to put his details 'out there'. I don't want to offend them and people can be touchy. The information you've already given me is a great help and with luck I will be able to give you the whole story very soon.

Guy 

Let me have his name and I should be able to answer your queries.

Dom

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domwalsh
19 hours ago, 58 Div Mule said:

A group of medals was recently sold on eBay to a Marine killed in an air raid on London in May 1918

 

He's listed in the book ' With Full and Grateful Hearts' as serving with 4 Bn RM.

 

I had a look at ADM 159 which gives service with Chatham Div. No notation of service with 4 Bn.

 

Ian Castles' website gives details of the bomb that dropped on his home address. 

 

Died in in hospital some days after the raid.

 

Can't find confirmation of service with 4Bn.

Are you able to furnish his name? If he was with the 4th Battalion I should be able to confirm that.

Dom

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horatio2

I think the man 58DM is chasing is Pte Thomas George BIRD Chatham/8615 RMLI, DOW on 22 May 1918, having been bombed on 19 May. He is also here - http://www.naval-history.net/xDKCas1918-05May.htm  erroneously listed as a "Zeebrugge Casualty" of the 4th Bn. His ADM 159 papers do not have a note about participation in the VC Ballot.

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domwalsh

You're right. No sign of BIRD on the 4th Battalion muster roll

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58 Div Mule

Confirmation that the group referred to were indeed named to T G Bird. His ADM159 confirms death from wounds received in an air raid on 19 May 18, home address 74 Seventh Ave, Manor Park, London.

 

58DM.

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crackingbloke

Yes, It is Thomas George Bird. I have been through what is a very extensive archive of papers yesterday. My original request was for information on where the original casualty records were. It did seem from the start that a man killed as a result of an air raid on 18/19 May 18 could have been wounded on the raid and been released from hospital in time to get bombed! Also, although I know very little about Naval/ Royal Marines details of service I thought he may have been in possession of a form B.333a. In short it states that as a pensioner who volunteered for service he would be given "Favourable consideration in appropriating them to a posts", although this has not yet been discovered. It might well have suited him very well to be at Chatham when he lived quite near with his wife and family, he was also 45 years old at the time of his death.

On the other hand, He had qualified for the full trio of WW1 medals by his service which included serving on Gun Boats in 1915. One of the very many floral tributes at his funeral was from 4th Battalion RMLI Chatham. At a time when so many of the Battalion were killed or seriously wounded they also managed a collection of over £14 for his widow within days of his death. Of course the question that I still wonder about is, if he wasn't on the raid and not wounded, how and why has his name been recorded so frequently as having been on it.

Hence my original request for details of source material. 

Although an earlier waxed parchment of service has turned up, so far there is nothing covering the Great War, would this be a waxed paper or a paybook? I'd be interested to know so I can advise the family whet to look for.

It would have been nice to conform his presence on the Zeebrugger raid, but it's still a very interesting story. The devastation coursed by that one bomb on the last raid of that war was quite amazing and must have brought the war home with a bump to so many on the home front.

Guy

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Keith_history_buff
21 minutes ago, crackingbloke said:

In short it states that as a pensioner who volunteered for service he would be given "Favourable consideration in appropriating them to a posts", although this has not yet been discovered. It might well have suited him very well to be at Chatham when he lived quite near with his wife and family, he was also 45 years old at the time of his death.


Whilst there were former men who re-enlisted, got a new service number, and were given "favourable consideration", I don't this applies as such to him, as he had not formally left.

He appears to have enlisted in 1894, and was in the Portsmouth Division of the RMLI. At some point, he was transferred to the Chatham Division. He would have served his 12 years as of 1906. Given that I do not have access to his service record, I can't see how much longer he stayed on as a regular, or whether he was discharged from regular service, but continued to serve in the reserves.
 

33 minutes ago, crackingbloke said:

One of the very many floral tributes at his funeral was from 4th Battalion RMLI Chatham. At a time when so many of the Battalion were killed or seriously wounded they also managed a collection of over £14 for his widow within days of his death.


The 4th Battalion was a hotch-potch, and a relatively new unit, being formed in February 1918 I believe. It had a Headquarters Company, and three infantry Companies, one apiece from Plymouth, Portsmouth and Chatham. I would likewise have imagined that his relationship would have been with oppos in the Chatham Company of the battalion, rather than across the entire battalion, whom he had met over the course of the past 20 years. Was he instrumental in supporting the Chatham Company Zeebrugge casualties with fundraising activities or similar, and it was this that saw reciprocal support when he unexpectedly died due to enemy action a few weeks later?  
 

38 minutes ago, crackingbloke said:

Of course the question that I still wonder about is, if he wasn't on the raid and not wounded, how and why has his name been recorded so frequently as having been on it.

Hence my original request for details of source material. 

 

Are you able to elucidate on the above? Other than official records, I would imagine that this man, clearly well-respected, would have been mentioned in the local newspapers. It sounds like the kind of story where a write-up on his funeral, and an obituary, would have made it into newsprint.

Thanks
Keith

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horatio2
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

He appears to have enlisted in 1894, and was in the Portsmouth Division of the RMLI. At some point, he was transferred to the Chatham Division.

From Portsmouth/7546 he transferred to Chatham/8615 on 12 April 1896. He completed his 12-year limited engagement on 13 July 1906 and enrolled in the Royal Fleet Reserve as Chatham/B/1334, re-enrolling in the RFR on 8 June 1912. He was mobilised from the RFR on 2 August 1914 and served through the war as a mobilised reservist, on the books of Chatham Division RMLI HQ from 17 October 1915 until his death.

 

It is possible that his Kew ADM 157 papers may offer more detail. - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C12286505

Edited by horatio2

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crackingbloke

If you check the first reply to this thread you will see an example of Bird being recorded as a casualty. This may just have been repeated over time. 

On another point, would the ADM 157 have different details to the ADM 159 file I already have? 

It is my hope that further details will be found in what is a mountain of original documents, but only time will tell. 

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horatio2
55 minutes ago, crackingbloke said:

would the ADM 157 have different details to the ADM 159 file I already have? 

Potentially, yes. The ADM 159 files are scans of his ledger record. ADM 157 should have his attestation and discharge papers and there should be other records as well. It depends on how much weeding has taken place at Kew. In the worst cases of weeding, all that remains is the attestation and discharge documents. Pot luck, I'm afraid.

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Keith_history_buff

I can confirm that the Royal Marine casualty list does not have Bird on the list. (Source: Paul Kendall). I can send you a scan from the book, if you are interested. 

16581  Berresford
18840  Berry
14008  Berry
19415  Blake

Thanks

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