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stevebecker

Fußart.Btl. 60 (60th FAR) German

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stevebecker

Mates,

 

I am after any details on the German 60th FAR sent to Turkey during the the war. These are what I have so far;

60th FAR Capt Apfel 
1Bty 60th FAR - (2x 105mm guns)  Lt Schmude
2/Bty/60th FAR - (4x 150mm How) Capt Petri   
3Bty/60th FAR - (2x 21cm How (Mörsers) (not seen in Palestine) Capt Naumann
4Bty 60th FAR - (2x 21cm How (Mörsers)  (not seen in Palestine) Capt Hartung

shown as 

Fußart.Btl. 60 

THe Orbat for this Bn shows the four Batteries, but it appears only two of whom were sent to Palestine, the others possibly remained around the Gallipoli Area to cover the Dardenells.

Reports give this unit in Palestine around 1917 but it disappears later that year, either disbanded or sent back to Germany?

Can anyone help with its history and movement during the war?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

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GreyC

Hi there is plenty of literature published on this regiment:

the 1st is the regimental history, the 2nd is from an alumni organisation of 1928 with membership-list. The 3rd deals with rhe history of all the Mecklenburg artillery till WW1.

Best,

GreyC

 

  • von Mitkämpfern: "Geschichte des Großherzoglich Mecklenburgischen Feldartillerieregiments Nr. 60 im Weltkriege 1914-1918", Hamburg 1921, H. Kampen, 302 Seiten.
  • "Kameradschaftliche Vereinigung Angehöriger des ehemaligen Großherzoglich Mecklenburgischen Feldartillerie-Regiments Nr. 60", Jahrbuch mit Mitglieder-Verzeichnis, Schwerin 1928, Sandmeyer, 99 Seiten.
  • Traditionsoffiziere: "Die Geschichte der Mecklenburgischen Artillerie", Zusammengestellt anläßlich des 125 jährigen Bestehens der Meckl. Art. im Mai 1938, Schwerin 1938, Bärensprung, 76 Seiten.

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assafx

the 21cm mortars werecin palestine. they are mentioned by kress von kressenstein.

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The Prussian

Hello!

GreyC. Steve is talking about Fußartillerie, not Feldartillerie.

Steve: FAR is the abbr.* for Feldartillerie. Heavy artillery would be FuAR (for regiment) or FuAB for bataillon.

As far as I know the staff and the batteries 1-4 were in Turkey (Sinai) from April until October 1916. The 1st and 2nd batteries were changed into 1. and 2. /Fußart.Btl.158 in March 25, 1917 and served in France. Batteries 1 and 2 were since December 1916 under command of Heeresgruppe Mackensen.

assafx. Could you please give me the page of Kressenstein?

The Fußart.Btl. 60 were set-up by 1st Garde-Fußart.Rgt. In that regimental history is a casualty list of the 60th bataillon.

The latest entry is from November 18, 1916 in Konstantinopel (probably in a lazarett). After this date all casualties in France or Belgium.

The "Ehrenbuch der deutschen schweren Artillerie" has a report of Major Weinlig in that bataillon. He mentioned the bataillon since April 1916 in Suez. The last mentioned actions were from august. He writes: "Die Formationen der deutschen schweren Artillerie kamen einige Zeit in der Nähe von Jerusalem in Ruhequartiere und wurden sodann auf andere Kriegsschauplätze abtransportiert." (The formations of the German heavy artillery came into resting quarters near Jerusalem for some time and were then transported to other theatres of war.).

* you know: abbr. is the abbr. for abbr. :D

 

 

Edited by The Prussian

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GreyC

Hi Andy,

thanks! I relied on the use of the correct abbreiviation.

GreyC

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assafx
10 hours ago, The Prussian said:

assafx. Could you please give me the page of Kressenstein? 

 

 

 

 

 

I have the Hebrew translation.

he mentions in page 122 (of the translated version) he mentions getting artillery support with it two batteries of 21cm mortars.

 

if you want to look for it in the German version, its after august 1915 on the episode where he 's getting sick with typhus and becomes the Army head of staff.

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The Prussian

Ah, ok. So we are in 1915. Then it´s clear. I thought the 60th bataillon was mentioned in 1917 in Asia! That would have made we wonder...

In the german book it´s in page 132

Edited by The Prussian

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stevebecker

Mates,

 

You got me there.

 

My Orbats from Palestine, show the FussBn 60 between March to June 1917 with Ottoman 8th Army and the 20th & 22nd Corps during that time?

 

So any details of its service predating these dates would be nice to read.

 

Can you give me some pages of the History covering this period or show me where I can read them.

 

Funny I have never seen any photos of 21cm guns in Palestine, or heard of them in British records being fired at them?

 

German records show this Artillery in the Feb invasion of Egypt

 

a 15cm Bty under a Maj Heibey (no details on who they were or where they came from?

 

In the Aug 1916 invasion (but no details on what are German guns?)

 

a Ottoman 150cm Bty some time callled the 10th Agir (Heavy) Bty (4xHows)

 

A 100cm Bty (2xHow) no details?

 

And the KUK guns

 

The first recorded mention of FussBn 60 in British records is at 1st Gaza (March 1917) where it is shown with 4x150cm guns and 4x100cm guns.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker

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The Prussian

Hello Steve!

I haven´t seen any records according to the 60th bataillon in Palestine. Maybe they left some 21cm behind, then used by turkish units.

I ´ll check my files at the weekend.

Edited by The Prussian

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The Prussian

Well, I checked the "Ehrenbuch" of the heavy artillery.

The batteriy 60 is mentioned until autumn 1916.

Another unit in Gallipoli was Fußart.Battery 614 (10,5cm)

Also until march 1916 I found the 12th and 13th battery of bavarian food-art.rgt. 1 with howitzers.

For Palestine only turkish batteries were mentioned (most of them under german command)

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stevebecker

Mate,

 

Any details in this area would be of interest, either at Gallipoli or in Palestine.

 

FussBty 614 is not a unit I am sure of ? no mention I can find at Gallipoli?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

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The Prussian

Hi Steve!

The Fußart.Bttr. 614 was formed December 20, 1915 by Ers.Btl./Fußart.Rgt.7 from 6th battery of that bataillon.

20.12.15-2.2.16: Cologne. Training for action in Turkey ("Veilchenunternehmen" = operation violet)

3.2.16-5.2.16: Transport to Constantinople

10.3.16-2.10.16: Gallipoli

2.10.16-15.10.16: Transport to Cologne

18.11.16: Changed into 2./Fußart.Bttr. 150

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stevebecker

Mate

 

danke

 

Can you send these details

 

"The Fußart.Btl. 60 were set-up by 1st Garde-Fußart.Rgt. In that regimental history is a casualty list of the 60th bataillon."

 

Can you show those men who were casualties in Palestine?

 

"The latest entry is from November 18, 1916 in Konstantinopel (probably in a lazarett). After this date all casualties in France or Belgium.

The "Ehrenbuch der deutschen schweren Artillerie" has a report of Major Weinlig in that bataillon. He mentioned the bataillon since April 1916 in Suez. The last mentioned actions were from august. He writes: "Die Formationen der deutschen schweren Artillerie kamen einige Zeit in der Nähe von Jerusalem in Ruhequartiere und wurden sodann auf andere Kriegsschauplätze abtransportiert." (The formations of the German heavy artillery came into resting quarters near Jerusalem for some time and were then transported to other theatres of war.)."

 

Can you show these documents?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

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The Prussian

Hello Steve!

Here we go:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_20190331_071238.jpg

Screenshot (74).jpg

Screenshot (75).jpg

Edited by The Prussian

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assafx
On 29/03/2019 at 00:26, stevebecker said:

Funny I have never seen any photos of 21cm guns in Palestine, or heard of them in British records being fired at them?

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

i was looking at hundreds of photographs from the Palestine front but never seen the 21cm.

I need to check my records to see if there's another mention besides Kressenstein's.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that until the fall of Serbia, in the beginning of 1916, there isn't a direct land line between Germany and Turkey.

This required some effort to get the guns troops and ammo to the Ottoman Empire.

 

regarding the KUK artillery all i could find were these two:

http://www.ammsbrisbane.com/documentation/rohr_1.html

http://memory.loc.gov/phpdata/pageturner.php?type=contactminor&cmIMG1=/pnp/ppmsca/13700/13709/00093t.gif&agg=ppmsca&item=13709&caption=92

 

 

Assaf

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The Prussian

That´s absolutely right, Assaf!

I read again the reports of the "Ehrenbuch der deutschen schweren Artillerie". I will try to bring it in a short version.

The german military mission started to work at the beginning of 1914. They controlled the german guns in the Dardanelles. No active german heavy units in that time.

Like you said, since after Serbia´s breakdown two austrian batteries (24cm motor-mortars and 15cm howitzers) joined the german-turkish defense in Gallipoli.

In february 1916 the german battery 614 reached the theatre.

Another new battaillon was the 60. (one 10cm battery with two guns, one heavy howitzer battery with four guns, two mortar-batteries with two guns).. It arrived in mid-april 1916 in Constantinople.

In that time also two bavarian batteries (satff, 13th and 14th battery of IV./1.bav. Foot-Art.Rgt. with heavy field-howitzers 13 arrived (later used in Iraq and Caucasus).

During that period the british-french forces left the Dardanelles and the staff of the both bavarian batteries came back to Germany, while the two remaining batteries became 1st and 2nd turkish heavy rapide-fire 15cm howitzer-battery. Soime german soldiers stayed in that battereis! They came back to Germany in June 1917!

If the british recordings were talking about german howitzers, they probably meant the 15cm howitzers whoie became turkish in october 1916 (with german  and turkish soldiers).

The book "Der k.u.k. Wüstenkrieg" by Peter Jung gives us a list of the austrian heavy batteries:

1914: -

1915: 24cm Motor-Mortar-Battery N° 9 and 15cm Howitzer-Battery N°36

1916: see 1915 and Mountain-Howitzer-Division v. Marno

1917: see 1916 and 10cm Canon-Battery N°20

1918: see 1917 and Mountain-Canon-Det. Turkey

Edited by The Prussian

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stevebecker

Mate,

 

Thank you, this gives me some checking into the men lost in Palestine/Turkey.

 

I worked out these men died 

 

Hoff Peter    Gnr    2Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 2-8-16 in Jerusalem
Horftmann Bernard    Gef    2Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 19-10-16 in Jerusalem
Scherer Daion    Gnr    2Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 7-8-16 in Istanbul 
Mugge Heinrich    Gnr    2Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 23-9-16 at Field Hosp 213
Anders Gerhard    LtdeR    1Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 1-8-16 in Jerusalem
Beibold Anton     Gef    3Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 18-11-16 in Istanbul 
Mielle Heinrich    Gnr    3Bty/FussABn 60    1916-    died 5-7-16 at Aleppo
 

I hope their names are correct as Old German is hard to read

 

I checked my lists of German burials in Palestine and Turkey, but could not find these men mentioned anywhere in the burial records, true my lists are not complete but still not to find one is strange?

 

I don;t know why British Intell reports give this unit in Palestine during Late March to June 1917, when all reports show it left by Dec 1916?

 

Another German mate sent me this on the unit;

 

From Handbuch der Verbände un Truppen des deutschen Heeres 1914-1918, X, 1 
07.01.1916 : raised
25.03.1917 : 1. and 2. Bt. became 1. and 2. Bt. FussAB. 158
about 20.10.1917 : 5. Bt. (Kraftzug) raised from Kurzer Marine Kanone Bt. 9 and armed with 15cm Kan. 16 Kp. 
03.1918 : 3.4 and 4. Bt. rearmed with langer Mörser

04.1916-07.10.1916: Stab and 1., 2., 3., 4. Bt. in Turkey 
01.12.1916 - 01.02.1917: 1., 2. Bt. in Macedonia (Heeresgruppe Mackensen)
01.02. 1917 : Staff and 1., 2. Bt. Ers.Btl. in Döberitz
27.03.1917-11.06.1917 : Staff and 3., 4. Bt. 6. Armee
20.06.1917-21.11.1917 : Staff and 1., 2. Bt. 4. Armee
20.10.1917 : 5. Bt. Köln
27.10.1917 : 5 Bt. 4 Armee 
25.11. 1917-10.12.1917: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. 2. Armee
31.12. 1917-22.06.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. 18. Armee
14.07.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. 3. Armee
28.07. 1918-10.08.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. 1. Armee
19.08.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. Longuyon
01.09.1918-25.09.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. 5. Armee
02.10.1918-09.10.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. A.Abt. C
16.10.1918-30.10.1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. 5. Armee
03.11. 1918: Staff and 3., 4., 5 Bt. A.Abt. C

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker

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The Prussian

Hi Steve!

Did you check the official casualty lists too?

http://des.genealogy.net/eingabe-verlustlisten/search/index

Well, I´ve got that book too, but I just sent you the infos according to the turkish theatre. But there you see. They finished in Turkey in october 1916, then they were one month in Macedonia and then until armistice at the western front.

I will check the KIAs this afternoon after work.

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charlie2
Posted (edited)

Hoff Peter - buried Jerusalem

Horstmann Bernhard - buried Jerusalem

Scherer Damian - buried El Quantara

Mügge Heinrich - Edit - buried El Quantara as Heinrich Mugge

Anders Gerhard - buried El Quantara

Leibold Anton - buried Tarabya

Mielke Heinrich - buried Allepo

 

Charlie

Edited by charlie2
Additional info re Mügge

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The Prussian

Hello Charlie!

I think you used the book "Deutsche Soldatengräber in Israel" (by Norbert Schwake)?

https://www.hsozkult.de/publicationreview/id/rezbuecher-11767

Here is the review-translation:

The character of the First World War as a global military conflict has receded into the background in the past due to the historiographical focus on the European theater of war. Central powers and allies fought on almost all continents, for example in the then German protectorates and also in Palestine. The undertaking of Norbert Schwake, doctor at the Hospital of the Brothers of Charity in Nazareth and since 2001 responsible for the military cemetery there, is therefore a work that can fill the "white spots" on the research map of the First World War. However, it is not a historical analysis - in the author's words "not an academic 'paper' with all its refinements" (p. 8) - but a memorial-culture work. The concern is documentary, for the aim was "to get every single German soldier buried in Israel out of his anonymity" (p. 8). As rich in anecdotes as in facts, the author describes the circumstances of death of literally every German soldier who died and provides biographical information on his family members. This is a list of martyrs in prose, extended by numerous details of military operations. Finally, the author shows which fallen person was buried when, where and under what circumstances and, if necessary, reburied. The rest of the presentation is dedicated to the founding history of the central German military cemetery in Nazareth.

In 1918 a total of 16,000 German soldiers were in Palestine. They were deployed in staffs of the Turkish army, as simple soldiers or as commanders of various military units. They were supported by German flying units. Militarily, the war years in the Levant were a fiasco. For the Ottoman troops with German or Austrian participation, it was a continuous withdrawal after the advance to the Suez Canal had failed. Around 1917, the front line was located near the city of Gaza, where several fierce battles raged with the British. In December 1917 these took Jerusalem, and two months later Jericho. A collapse of the German-Turkish lines, however, can only be spoken of in September 1918, when the British penetrated as far as Amman and Damascus. The second part of the book is devoted to the post-war years and the efforts to identify soldiers killed in war and their graves and ultimately to establish a central memorial site in Nazareth. In the 1920s, private individuals and German diplomats made an effort to the British to ensure that the German soldiers were buried in dignity. After sometimes arduous negotiations and a no less complicated realization phase, the German military cemetery was inaugurated on June 30, 1935. The event was politically instrumentalized by the National Socialists: the speakers emphasized the knightly "convictions" of the German victims and used the opportunity for anti-British polemics. It goes without saying that Jewish Palestinian emigrants from Germany were not invited. After the Second World War, the cemetery was part of the standard programme of visits by German politicians to Israel.

For the further analysis of the World War, it should be noted that the topic of German soldiers (graves) in Palestine is superimposed in three ways, namely geographically, chronologically and in terms of memory culture: First, little is known about the Palestinian front in contrast to the European theater of war. Secondly, the events of the Second World War around the "desert fox" Erwin Rommel are much better understood than the operations between 1914 and 1918. And thirdly, German graves in Palestine have hardly any place in the collective German memory in view of the Holocaust commemoration.

What value does the mourning and commemoration work have for those who died after more than ninety years? In the field of communicative memory, there is no longer any room for this, since not only the former survivors but also all their immediate relatives have died. The author seems to be concerned with more: the anchoring of positive military values in the collective memory. This is indicated by some statements that can be regarded as a positive reinterpretation: there is talk of the "rescue of Palestinian Jewry by the German military in the First World War" (p. 12), and the German commander-in-chief Colonel Kreß von Kressenstein appears as a civilian benefactor who "helped the starving population by distributing grain from his army magazines filled with much effort" (p. 33). The responsibility of the German military is also relativized in the Armenian genocide. It is true that although Germans were not directly involved, they were certainly not directly involved in the deportation.

Swake's depiction, which is excellently equipped with numerous photos, allows insights into the military actions and the way of fighting. It shows that for the Palestinian theater of war the idea of industrial mass warfare has to be revised to a large extent. This was also reflected in the burial culture, which had not yet assumed the anonymous form of the Western Front. The aviators in particular cultivated a cult of chivalry and, if necessary, informed the enemy about the fate of the prisoners or fallen with dropped leaflets. But it was by no means a war idyll, even if some of the photos would suggest this. Heat, thirst and a hard military confrontation with numerous victims also indicate the horror of the war.

The book provides detailed information about the fighting and the fate of the individual soldiers and testifies to the meticulousness and care of the author. But if you don't want to sit on a cult of martial arts that is inappropriate nowadays, the reader has to try to keep a critical distance from the events of that time.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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charlie2

Andy,

I only used the casualty lists, the Roll of Honour which you provided and the info contained on the Volksbund site.

 

There may be some uncertainty regarding Heinrich Mügge and the date of his death. I think this is him http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/6009316 It records him not having DoWs but being with another Unit and corrects his name from Mugge to Mügge. What do you think?

 

Charlie

C3D10326-714F-4A4E-AEF5-C57B6A79E732.jpeg

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The Prussian

That´s hard to say, Charlie. The book I mentioned, did not list him. (neither Mügge nor Mugge). Because there are a lot of Heinrich without any unit it will be difficult...

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charlie2
11 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

That´s hard to say, Charlie. The book I mentioned, did not list him. (neither Mügge nor Mugge). Because there are a lot of Heinrich without any unit it will be difficult...

 

There are only two possibilities after his date of death, the other Heinrich Mügge without a unit in the casualty lists are only recorded as being wounded.

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/5509471

http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/6009316

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The Prussian

That´s the problem...

The first one died because of sickness, the second one is marked as "not dead, but in another unit".

So only the first one fits. But there were several soldiers, who died, but were not mentioned in those lists.

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stevebecker
Posted (edited)

Mates,

 

Thank you for correcting my old German, that helped me find Leibold buried in Istanbul

 

What do you have on the death of LtdeR Gerhard Anders

 

Shown died 1st Aug 1916 at either in Jerusalem or buried El Quantara (by both of you blokes)?

 

It appears by these men that the unit or part was at the Romani battle in Aug 1916.

 

That may account for an unidentified Heavy battery with the Ottoman Forces during that operation?

 

In the Aug 1916 invasion (but no details on what are German guns?) from British and Ottoman sources:

 

an Ottoman 150cm Bty some times callled the 10th Agir (Heavy) Bty (4xHows)

 

A 100cm Bty (2xHow) no details? (could this be part of the FussABn 60)

 

The plot thickens

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker

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