Frederick Smith, Rifle Brigade/Australian forces

[stiletto_33853]

One for our Aussie friends, if they can help.

I have an Acting Corporal Frederick Smith, 9556, Rifle Brigade. Enlisted 15/1/1903, went to B Army Reserve on 19/1/1910 and asked for permission to live in Australia. On 10/8/1914 he was mobilised with the (Australian) Commonwealth Authorities and discharged on 4/1/1916 having completed his 1st term of engagement.

Sorry about the name Smith!! I just wondered if there is any record of his services with the A.I.F.??, he never went overseas with them so I presume some sort of training or administration role.

Any assistance would be gratefully received.

 

Andy

Edited 4 March , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[clk]

Hi Andy,

 

The National Archives of Australia has a 28 page service record for him. I'm not sure if this direct link will work, as I think that they use a 'session timeout'. He s fairly easy to find using the name search function*. He's at the top of the returns a couple of pages in, and jumps out as his POB is shown as Pittsmore. The item barcode is 1774990.

 

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit;

In the dropdown 'Category of records' use WW1

 

The direct link posted above doesn't work. It seems to take you to the search page, where you can login as a guest, and then do the name search.

Edited 4 March , 2019 by clk

[ss002d6252]

Try this

 

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1774990

EDIT: Snap

 

Quote

I just wondered if there is any record of his services with the A.I.F.??, he never went overseas with them so I presume some sort of training or administration role.

 

He served in France with the AIF

 

Craig

Edited 4 March , 2019 by ss002d6252

[stiletto_33853]

Thank you very much Chris & Craig, much appreciated as I could not find him but not very good at the Australian records.Only served in Egypt according to his British records. Another of my mystery men tidied up, thanks a lot.

 

Andy

Edited 4 March , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[Guest]

Mate,

 

You maybe aware that he was part of the Army Instructional Staff during the war before going overseas.

 

I had a look for him pre war, but he is not mentioned in this unit, which was part of the Permanent Forces of Australia.

 

As an old soldier with years service in the British Army, he was needed to train the new soldiers before sending them away.

 

Like many old soldiers he tried to also go, but was stopped untill 1917 when he left with the 10Bn AIF.

 

I have a number of old soldiers like him, who late in the war managed to catch a boat.

 

I notice he also claimed his wife while overseas so he could bring her back to Australia after the war.

 

While he is shown as enlisted 1 March 1917 (in the AIF) he is shown with 14 months service in the AIS before he joined the AIF.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

[stiletto_33853]

Thanks Steve, appreciated. I did wonder if he was mobilised on 10/8/14 with the Commonwealth Authorities if he been involved with some sort of training before going overseas in 1917.

 

Andy

[Guest]

Mate,

 

You should check British Reserve Force in Australia. Who after the start of the war were taken into Commonweath service to help train the new soldiers.

 

Numbers were sent home in 1914/15 to the UK, but others were retained in Australia for other tasks.

 

Yes he would have is AIF enlistment date (1917) but another for his earlier enlistment into the AIS

 

Like these two men

 

PICKERING    Robert Christopher    3407    A/Cpl    02 LHR    29R tos 1 LH MGS 12-17 Ex 7Bty/3 FAB (1607) to Sgt DNE disch 14-10-14 MU (British Northamptonshire Yeomanry 5 years) (AFA to A&I Staff CMF 3 years)    A&I Staff    Soldier / A&I Staff / Engineers labourer

 

STUCK    Henry Alfred    3466    Sgt    9 LHR    30R to Instructor Imperial School 3-18 to Moble repair unit 8-18 to MT Dvr AASC MT 10-18 att 5 Mtd Bde 10-18 att Anzac MD HQ 4-19 (British The Essex Regt 17 years) (A&I staff PMF 2 years)     A&I staff    Soldier / A&I staff / Motor Mechanic
 

Cheers

S.B

 

Edited 6 March , 2019 by stevebecker

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Craig,

Good work!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Ian Harris]

Hi, Stilleto _33853

Not been on the site for awhile so was a bit taken aback when I came across this topic 

Frederick Smith was my Great uncle and I mentioned him in another thread

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/253182-arthur-smith-rifles-brigade/?page=3

I have managed to clear up some questions I had in that topic thanks to his AIF service record

He served with the Aussies at Mitcham camp in Adelaide

I am trying to ascertain what happened to him after he returned to Australia with his family in 1920

 

PS the reference to "Pittesmore" on his AIF papers refers to a district in Sheffield

Edited 10 March , 2019 by Ian Harris
additional info

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Ian,

He was one of my mystery men that I was trying to pin down with a Regular number, a fair few more to tie down with service in the Kings African Rifles, attached to the Nigerian Regiment, Indian Prison Service, East African and West African service and so the list goes on and seemingly on. Hope the thread helped a little with people's knowledgeable posts.

 

Andy

Edited 10 March , 2019 by stiletto_33853

[Ian Harris]

Hi, Stilleto _33853 ,

I was very lucky to find all his service records had survived and make fascinating reading.

[Keith_history_buff]

When I read the service record for Issy Smith VC I was surprised to see him leaving Australia to rejoin the Manchester Regiment back in the UK. It's interesting to come across these examples of men in the Army Reserve who, instead of going back to the UK, have been retained in Australia, so their experience can be used by the Army Instructional Staff instead.

There seems to be a few people on Soldiers who Died in the Great War who returned from Australia to the UK to rejoin the colours and who duly made the ultimate sacrifice, no more than 100, though.

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a Fred Smith on the 1891 Census, living on Pen istone Road (deliberate space in case a profanity filter is in place), in one of the residences between no 357 and no 359. As I understand it, this road takes you from Sheffield city centre to Hillsborough, and goes through Pitsmoor (I daresay other members can make a more informed comment on their local geography.)
 

Parish	Nether Hallam

Registration district	Ecclesall Bierlow

City	Sheffield
County	Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)

Archive reference	RG12
Piece number	3795
Folio	57
Page	2
Record set	1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

 

This looks like the same family ten years later, residing at 8 P enistone Road

Parish	Nether Hallam

Registration district	Ecclesall Bierlow

City	Sheffield
County	Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)

Archive reference	RG13
Piece number	4341
Folio	134
Page	4

 

There is a Fred Smith, single and living in Sheffield on the 1911 Census, which may be another man, if Frederick Smith and his wife (married 1910) are living in Ulster in 1911.

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

The surviving Rifle Brigade army service record give the addresses at which his mother and stepfather are living in 1901 and 1911. They are 50 Bamforth Street and 74 Martin Street. It would appear that one of his colleagues was murdered, the perpetrator (Verney Asser) being hanged at Shepton Mallet on 5 March 1918.

[frev]

On 11/03/2019 at 10:15, Ian Harris said:

Frederick Smith was my Great uncle and I mentioned him in another thread

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/253182-arthur-smith-rifles-brigade/?page=3

 

I am trying to ascertain what happened to him after he returned to Australia with his family in 1920

 

 

 

Hi Ian – some details for you:

 

SMITH, Frederick

 

Frederick returned to Australia on the Megantic (courtesy of the Australian Repatriation system) with his wife (Sarah Helena) and 2 children (Sarah Florence 9, David Frederick 6), embarking 9/1/1920– disembarking in Sydney, NSW

 

In July 1920 they were living at 613 Darling St, Balmain, NSW (letter in service record)

 

By 1930 they were living at Tambar Springs, NSW (Electoral Roll)

Frederick was listed as a Labourer 1930, 1936, and a Cook 1943

 

Frederick enlisted for WW2 (changing his age a little):

 

SMITH, FREDERICK
Service	Australian Army
Service Number	N388283
Date of Birth	9 Jan 1889
Place of Birth	SHEFFIELD, ENGLAND
Date of Enlistment	9 Jan 1942
Locality on Enlistment	TAMBAR SPRINGS, NSW
Place of Enlistment	PADDINGTON, NSW
Next of Kin	SMITH, SARAH
Date of Discharge	21 Oct 1944
Rank	Sapper
Posting at Discharge	47 D C R E

 

 

As did his son:

 

SMITH, FREDERICK DAVID
Service	Australian Army
Service Number	NX163824 (N163671)
Date of Birth	22 Jun 1913
Place of Birth	BELFAST, IRELAND
Date of Enlistment	27 May 1943
Locality on Enlistment	36 AUST COY ASC
Place of Enlistment	FIELD, QLD
Next of Kin	SMITH, SARAH
Date of Discharge	3 Apr 1946
Rank	Private
Posting at Discharge	160 AUSTRALIAN GENERAL TRANSPORT COMPANY

 

 

1943 Sarah moved to 2 Yeoman’s Terrace, Newcastle, NSW (with Florence, Waitress)

Also listed above address in 1949, 1958 (Frederick, Labourer) – 1963 (Frederick not listed)

 

Deaths (presuming the parents are correct):

Frederick SMITH died 16/2/1959 Newcastle, NSW – son of John and Eliza Florence

Sarah Helena SMITH died 15/12/1966 Hamilton, NSW – daughter of David and Sarah

 

 

Cheers, Frev

 

[Ian Harris]

17 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

There is a Fred Smith on the 1891 Census, living on Pen istone Road (deliberate space in case a profanity filter is in place), in one of the residences between no 357 and no 359. As I understand it, this road takes you from Sheffield city centre to Hillsborough, and goes through Pitsmoor (I daresay other members can make a more informed comment on their local geography.)
 

Parish	Nether Hallam

Registration district	Ecclesall Bierlow

City	Sheffield
County	Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)

Archive reference	RG12
Piece number	3795
Folio	57
Page	2
Record set	1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

 

This looks like the same family ten years later, residing at 8 P enistone Road

Parish	Nether Hallam

Registration district	Ecclesall Bierlow

City	Sheffield
County	Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)

Archive reference	RG13
Piece number	4341
Folio	134
Page	4

 

There is a Fred Smith, single and living in Sheffield on the 1911 Census, which may be another man, if Frederick Smith and his wife (married 1910) are living in Ulster in 1911.

 

 

Keith, thanks for the info, however I have the correct census records for both these years for Frederick and siblings. Frederick lived on roads just off Penistone Road so it may be there is some connection for the Smiths in that area. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Gary,
Whilst my post did refer to this as a possible address, the subsequent post that I made 24 minutes after did refer to the fact that I found his stepfather and mother at two different addresses, which were recorded in his surviving service record, and were reproduced in that post.

The Census Street Indexes project from 2012 can still be useful, for areas where postwar redevelopment of a district has completely changed the urban geography
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Sheffield_Registration_District%2C_1891_Census_Street_Index

[Ian Harris]

14 hours ago, frev said:

 

 

 

Hi Ian – some details for you:

 

 

 

SMITH, Frederick

 

 

 

Frederick returned to Australia on the Megantic (courtesy of the Australian Repatriation system) with his wife (Sarah Helena) and 2 children (Sarah Florence 9, David Frederick 6), embarking 9/1/1920– disembarking in Sydney, NSW

 

 

 

In July 1920 they were living at 613 Darling St, Balmain, NSW (letter in service record)

 

 

 

By 1930 they were living at Tambar Springs, NSW (Electoral Roll)

 

Frederick was listed as a Labourer 1930, 1936, and a Cook 1943

 

 

 

Frederick enlisted for WW2 (changing his age a little):

 

 

 

SMITH, FREDERICK
Service	Australian Army
Service Number	N388283
Date of Birth	9 Jan 1889
Place of Birth	SHEFFIELD, ENGLAND
Date of Enlistment	9 Jan 1942
Locality on Enlistment	TAMBAR SPRINGS, NSW
Place of Enlistment	PADDINGTON, NSW
Next of Kin	SMITH, SARAH
Date of Discharge	21 Oct 1944
Rank	Sapper
Posting at Discharge	47 D C R E

 

 

 

 

As did his son:

 

 

 

SMITH, FREDERICK DAVID
Service	Australian Army
Service Number	NX163824 (N163671)
Date of Birth	22 Jun 1913
Place of Birth	BELFAST, IRELAND
Date of Enlistment	27 May 1943
Locality on Enlistment	36 AUST COY ASC
Place of Enlistment	FIELD, QLD
Next of Kin	SMITH, SARAH
Date of Discharge	3 Apr 1946
Rank	Private
Posting at Discharge	160 AUSTRALIAN GENERAL TRANSPORT COMPANY

 

 

 

 

1943 Sarah moved to 2 Yeoman’s Terrace, Newcastle, NSW (with Florence, Waitress)

 

Also listed above address in 1949, 1958 (Frederick, Labourer) – 1963 (Frederick not listed)

 

 

 

Deaths (presuming the parents are correct):

 

Frederick SMITH died 16/2/1959 Newcastle, NSW – son of John and Eliza Florence

 

Sarah Helena SMITH died 15/12/1966 Hamilton, NSW – daughter of David and Sarah

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers, Frev

 

 

 

Hi  Frev , 

This is brilliant. I wasn't expecting anything like this.

I was trying records around Sydney and Adelaide as I now have Ancestry worldwide so I can get Aussie records.

You have the parents for Frederick correct - Eliza Florence- who was my great grandmother, my grandfather,Frederick's half-brother was born before she married John Smith.

 Once again, thanks