GreyC Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) Hi, this photo was developed in Wilhelmshaven, so I presume it was taken on a visit of a German warship in GB during the 1930s. Can anybody please identify the gentlemen in the photo. The first one could be an Admiral of the Fleet? The other two probably belonged to his staff? Thank you very much! GreyC Edited 1 March , 2019 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 12 minutes ago, GreyC said: The first one could be an Admiral of the Fleet? If I'm not mistaken, the sleeve lace indicates (L to R) an Admiral, a Captain & a Lieutenant Commander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 1 hour ago, michaeldr said: If I'm not mistaken, the sleeve lace indicates (L to R) an Admiral, a Captain & a Lieutenant Commander Man in front is a rear admiral, followed by a captain, and then a lieutenant-commander. In those days the space between the gold braid would have been coloured to show the speciality, but obviously this doesn't show up in black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) An Admiral, surely? With the Legion d’Honneur and Croix de Guerre. Edited 1 March , 2019 by Uncle George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 Rear Admiral is one thick band and one other. He is a full Admiral - then Captain and Lieutenant Commander - as per Michaeldr's contribution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 If the Admiral's two orders can be identified, then that may help narrow down the possible candidates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) Top of the 2 orders is the Royal Victorian Order The other is a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath Edited 1 March , 2019 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) Perhaps he is Sir George Patey. Edited 1 March , 2019 by Uncle George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 …...a Knights Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order and a Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, which carries the Honour of Knighthood, the picture is taken in Portsmouth Dockyard that is the Lion's Gate behind them and the clock tower over No.10 store Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 I‘m pretty sure this is the occasion, 1934. One of the ships is the Königsberg. At about 4min 50 secs is a full shot of the Admirals face. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie2 Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) The Admiral is the First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Ernie Chatfield. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernle_Chatfield,_1st_Baron_Chatfield https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernle_Chatfield,_1._Baron_Chatfield The other ship in the newsreel is the Leipzig. The visit took place between 11th & 15th July 1934. Edited 1 March , 2019 by charlie2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) It can't be Chatfield (whose WW1 connection was as Beatty's Flag Captain at Jutland). Chatfield had a KCMG, which would not have out-ranked the KCB (later GCB) which he held until 1934, and he only held a CVO. In any case, even the GCMG had a differently-shaped star. The shape of the Grand Cross star rules out all the other chivalric Grand Crosses. So, we are looking for someone who holds the GCVO and the KCB (even if later promoted to GCB). The only such admirals (or later Admirals of the Fleet) who meet these criteria and were alive in 1932 wre Jellicoe, Beatty, Sir Charles Madden and Sir Hubert Brand. The latter was C-in-C Plymouth and an Extra Equerry to the King but was only a KCVO in 1932. But the portrait on his Wikipedia page does not look much like the one in the OP. Ron Edited 1 March , 2019 by Ron Clifton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) Might he be Sir John Kelly? Wikipedia tells us that in 1934 he was an Admiral, GCVO and KCB; and that he held the Legion d’Honneur and Croix de Guerre (see post #4). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kelly_(Royal_Navy_officer) Edited 1 March , 2019 by Uncle George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 As Kelly was CinC Portsmouth 1934-1936 and we are looking at his turf, as it were, that's a pretty good shout by Uncle George. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 I would go along with that. Incidentally HMS Kelly, commanded by Mountbatten, was named after him. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 Kelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 One of his achievements was to sort out the mess after the Invergordon mutiny, in which he was critical of the Admiralty's handling of the pay-cuts issue. His face tells its own story! Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 He and his brother took part in the pursuit of the Goeben, each commanding a town class cruiser. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 March , 2019 Share Posted 1 March , 2019 37 minutes ago, rolt968 said: He and his brother took part in the pursuit of the Goeben, each commanding a town class cruiser. John Donald (known as Joe) Kelly took a short break from the war in early April 1915 to pop back from the Dardanelles to Malta to marry Maisie Kelly, the sister of Frederick Septimus Kelly, while the latter was with the Hood Battalion RND on the transport SS Grantully Castle in the Aegean. When the Dublin passed the Grantully Castle off Kapa Tepe on 28th April 1915, the Captain sent a semaphore message to ask if 'Sep' had got his letter from Malta, before the Dublin continued with her bombardment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 1 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 1 March , 2019 (edited) Good evening gentlemen, thank you all very much for getting involved in identifying the admiral in question. From what I read here so far it seems that the biographical information and pictures for comparison put forward make a strong case in favour of Sir John Kelly who got his Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath on 3rd June 1929 before being promoted to full admiral on 12th Dec 1930. According to WIKIPEDIA Kelly was appointed a Knight Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order on 13th July 1932. So the photo must have been taken after that date (thanks to Mark1959 for providing the info and photos) and before 3rd June 1935, the date he was awarded the highest class of the Order of the Bath (thanks Uncle George). He became C in C of Portsmouth (thanks for identifying the place Tony) in January 1935. The visit of the KÖNIGSBERG and LEIPZIG was, according to Charlie2 (also thanks) between 11th & 15th July 1934. So at that time he wasn´t C in C of Portsmouth yet, but that wouldn´t have prohibited him to pay his visit as full admiral in Portsmouth, I think. Again, thanks to all who helped solve thispuzzle and who supplied additional information, much appreciated! GreyC Edited 1 March , 2019 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 2 March , 2019 Share Posted 2 March , 2019 9 hours ago, GreyC said: So at that time he wasn´t C in C of Portsmouth yet, but that wouldn´t have prohibited him to pay his visit as full admiral in Portsmouth, I think. In defence of my post GreyC, according to the Navy List Sir John Kelly was appointed as CinC Portsmouth on 17 January 1934 so he held that appointment at the time of your photograph. Glad your original question has been answered with the expected interesting debates along the way! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 2 March , 2019 Share Posted 2 March , 2019 GreyC wondered about the identity of the gentleMEN in the photograph in the OP. The name of Kelly’s Flag Captain (if the Captain in that photo did indeed hold that appointment) and of the Lieutenant Commander remain unknown. The aiguillete worn by the Lieutenant Commander indicates I think that he was on the Admiral’s staff. Perhaps the Captain is wearing one on his right shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 2 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 2 March , 2019 Thank you both, again. I would rather trust people here on the forum than articles on WIKIPEDIA. So I will take 1934 as the more likely date, especially when backed up by the navy list! Thank you for explaining that. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 2 March , 2019 Share Posted 2 March , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Uncle George said: GreyC wondered about the identity of the gentleMEN in the photograph in the OP. The name of Kelly’s Flag Captain (if the Captain in that photo did indeed hold that appointment) and of the Lieutenant Commander remain unknown. The aiguillete worn by the Lieutenant Commander indicates I think that he was on the Admiral’s staff. Perhaps the Captain is wearing one on his right shoulder. …..he did indeed ask that question and it is remiss of us to leave him unfulfilled when the answer is readily to hand. I give you once again the July 1934 Navy List which probably is correct for the date of July 1934 though sometimes the list lagged behind a bit, but I'm almost sure Captain LDI MacKinnon and Lt.Cdr. CR Thompson are the men accompanying the Admiral. Lachlan Donald Ian MacKinnon is quite a chap but I will leave you to investigate his exploits at Jutland, Charles Ralfe "Tommy" Thompson was no slouch either Tony Edited 2 March , 2019 by MerchantOldSalt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 2 March , 2019 Share Posted 2 March , 2019 (edited) Blimey that’s impressive stuff from Tony. Tommy! - WSC’s “Flag Commander” in the Second war. I was about to post an anecdote about him, “inconsolable”, “lamenting as bitterly as Lord Ullin in the poem, but for different reasons” from ‘The Grand Alliance’; but I suspect the Mods would not approve. I see he served in submarines during the First war. Image from here: https://ghgraham.org/charlesthompson1895.html Edited 2 March , 2019 by Uncle George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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