Kut el Amara

[Guest kiah]

My Father Walter E. Armstead b.1897 d.1976 Enlisted 1914 first in the Hampshire Regiment No 2350 - transferred to the Royal Engineers Service No. 262438 and discharged December 1919 with acting rank of Regimental Sgt.Major (Medal Card & photographs). From 100 negatives in my possession mainly of mechanical and electrical installations which must have been taken after the seige was lifted, it is known that he was at Kut. He was not captured in the seige though was wounded in a battle(not known) and received four medals and a mention in despatches during his service.He told me that he had met or seen,(my memory)Laurence of Arabia.I believe that this could only have been in March/April 1916 when Lawrence was in Kut trying unsuccessfully to negotiate an end to the seige.I am trying to establish where the Royal Engineers were during the war & their role and hence where he was in 1915-1917? The only other names I have of anyone else at Kut are Lieutenant S.F.Newcombe of the Royal Engineers,who was captured, and a Sgt.Barney of B Company who was alive and well in 1918.(photograph)By the way the negatives are in perfect condition and print very well. They also include images of Kut itself(not pretty), Basra, and the Suez Canal. Any information,however small, will be much appreciated.

[PhilB]

I`d got the impression that nobody got out of Kut before the surrender. If it were possible to get out, one feels that Gen Townshend would have considered it his duty to go! Anybody know if escape was possible & to what extent? Phil B

[Paul Reed]

Have you tried tracing him at the National Archives? This may help in establishing which RE unit he was with at the time.

The Royal Engineers published a multi-volume history which does detail what work they were doing, but it does help to know which unit you are interested in.

If you don't establish which unit your father was in, and Lieut Newcombe was in the same one, then it might be an idea to try and trace him - as this could provide useful information for your own research?

[Ron]

In Kut were

Bridging Train

17th Company sappers and Miners

22nd Company Sappers and Miners

Sirmur Company (Indian)

Engineer Field Park

At the end of the siege sick and wounded were exchanged

with the Turks, the rest of the engineers along with all the

garrison were made Prisoners of War in April 1916.

Lawrence was never in Kut. Neogotiations with the Turks

were carried on outside the town to the south.

If he saw Lawrence then it would have been when Lawrence was

travelling upriver to meet the Turks.

Your father must either have been one of the sick or wounded

or one of the force attempting to relieve the town.

Regards

Ron

[Terry_Reeves]

I think it likely that he served with 13th (Western) Division which was the only British Division to have served in Mesopotamia. It was involved in the failed attempt to relieve Kut in April 1916. As part of the Tigres Corps , the Division was also involved in further operations against Kut between December 13th, 1916 and February 25th, 1917 , when Kut was captured.

The Divisional Engineers were 71st, 72nd and 88th Field Coys along with 13th Divisional Signal Company RE.

With regard to Lt S.F.Newcombe. There was a Lt Colonel S. F. Newcombe RE who was sent to the Middle-East in January 1917 as part of the British Military Mission. Their task was was to guide and advise Arab leaders in military and political matters. His name appears in General Sir Reginald Wingate's despatch from Cairo on 25 June 1917. This is just the sort of organisation which Lawrence would have had contact with, although it may just be coincidence that the two men had the same name and initials of course.

Terry Reeves

[Guest steveb21]

Mate,

LtCol SF Newcombe was captured during the 3rd Battle of Gaza (Beersheba) after he led a mixed force behind Beersheba to cut the hebron road.

His force was surounded and forced to surender around the 3rd Nov 1917.

He had a mixed career before this and after.

I am ubsure about the meeting of Lawrence, was he at Kut?

I found many old soldiers in Egypt/Palestine during the war claim to have meet Lawrence and many use to tell stories of it?

S.B

[bkristof]

O dear!

some people really can't laugh here.

[j.r.f]

KIAH

I have a copy ofTHE GREAT WAR I WAS THERE and was looking at it earlier this evening. By chance one of the issues I looked at was about KUT.If it would be of any use I could try to scan and send it to you off FORUM.

Let me know.

cheers.

john

[Andrew Smith]

In Kut were

Bridging Train

17th Company sappers and Miners

22nd Company Sappers and Miners

Sirmur Company (Indian)

Engineer Field Park

At the end of the siege sick and wounded were exchanged

with the Turks, the rest of the engineers along with all the

garrison were made Prisoners of War in April 1916.

Lawrence was never in Kut. Neogotiations with the Turks

were carried on outside the town to the south.

If he saw Lawrence then it would have been when Lawrence was

travelling upriver to meet the Turks.

Your father must either have been one of the sick or wounded

or one of the force attempting to relieve the town.

Regards

Ron

Ron,

Also in Kut were members of the Australian Half Flight. My Uncle William Lord was captured at Kut and was one of the thousands to die at the hand of the Turk. The enforced "death march" from Kut was perhaps the single greatest "war crime" to occur to any man that served in the armed forces during WW1.

Andrew.

[Guest kiah]

Grateful thanks to Ron,Terry,Steve,John,& Andrew who responded to my questions concerning Kut el Amara. I have plenty to do to follow up on the new information. My comments concerning Lawrence being in or near Kut were based on copy from the following source: Lawrence of Arabia- A Triumph, by Robert Payne. Published in the UK, 1966.

Now the matter has been raised, it is possible that Lawrence and his two companions made their way to the front line trenches of Kut, not from within the town itself but from some other point to the South. He was certainly there and he was not welcomed by the British Generals. They considered his mission, initiated by the British Government to be 'dishonourable for a soldier.'(Seven Pillars of Wisdom).

Payne writes that "the three officers made their way to the front line trenches of Kut where they waved the white flag. They then clambered across a plain crawling with black beetles and flies feeding on the bodies of the dead until some Turkish Officers came out to meet them...."My 1935 edition of The Seven Pillars of Wisdom mentions Kut only three times and without any detail.Payne must have had access to other papers.

Lt. Col.Newcombe is mentioned many times and he was of course a significant figure in the Arab revolt.I had not connected the Lt. Newcombe of the Royal Engineers who was captured at Kut, with him.As already said it could be a co-incidence or incorrect recording of history - not unusual.

By the way, my interest in Lawrence was triggered not only by my Father's comments but also by the fact that when I lived in Doreset our property was five minutes away from Cloud's Hill, Lawrences retreat.

Re: The forced march from Kut to Afion Kar Hassar(I think)See the "Guests of the Unspeakable" by T.W. White. This was the Turkish way of exterminating people they did not like,such as the Atrmenians and the Pontian Greeks!

Terry, I thought the siege lasted 20 weeks.

John, would be pleased indeed to receive copy about Kut from The Great War- I Was There.

Ron,have read a little about Australian Pilots in Mesopotamia. Did not know they were at Kut. Any more info ?

Greetings from Oz. Kiah

[Ron]

Kiah

Aircraft with Townshend's column were:

Seven including two converted naval seaplanes. I don't know whether their pilots were Australian or not. At the beginning of the siege the Flight Commander asked

Townshend to allow them to go south since they would not be able to operate when the town was under siege and Townshend allowed them to go south to Ali-al-Gharbi on condition that they would provide him with constant aerial observation. of the Turkish troops downriver of him. In the event very little of this was done, they only appeared over Kut four times during the siege apart from the fatuous attempt to supply Kut from the air in the last days.

Re Lawrence:

He did not play a very distinguished part in the negotiations. With two companions, Captain Herbert (an odd character, MP, very short-sighted, pops up all over the place during the period) and Colonel Beach, they arrived in the British front line and were conducted across No Man's Land to the Turkish lines where they were given horses to ride to the HQ of Halil Pasha. However, Lawrence had hurt his leg and didn't arrive at the meeting-place until the talks were almost over. The British Government were offering £2M for the freedom of the garrison of Kut.

The Turks refused but said that if the British sent ships up to Kut they could transport the garrison to Baghdad to save them marching. Beach had to go to see Halil a second time to say the the British Commander (General Lake) refused this request but reminded the Turks that they had promised Townshend to transport the troops themselves as well as pay them.

This ended the negotiations.

You can read the story in the book 'Mons, Anzac and Kut' by A Herbert.

Ron

[Nick]

Ron wrote:

Your father must either have been one of the sick or wounded

or one of the force attempting to relieve the town.

For interest, you may be interested to look at this web site, which shows some pictures of hospital boats at Kut:

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/tigrisfl.htm

Nick

[Terry_Reeves]

Kiah

Lt Colonel Newcombe was in fact a sapper officer.

Terry Reeves

[j.r.f]

KIA

Please send me your e-mail address and then I can send article straight to you.You can send me an e-mail by clicking on my name.Its quite a large article so it is better for me to send it direct.

CHEERS.

JOHN.