Burial in home churchyard

[Dragon]

I'm sorry if this question has been answered elsewhere, perhaps in the past.

Under what circumstances was a CWGC headstone erected within a graveyard in the UK?

I've recently come across a few for local men in their local churchyard (in Cheshire) and I wondered why they might have been buried at home. This applies to both Wars.

Many thanks.

Gwyn

[Jonathan Saunders]

Terry Denham is the best person to give you a comprehensive answer but the quick answer is they died at home, having either been in home service or evacuated with wounds sustained in the immediate war theartre.

In my local churchyard there is at least one man buried with a CWGC headstone who died after being discharged in 1919. He had been granted a 100% disability pension so there is no doubt his death was as a direct result of wounds received in Oct/Nov 1918 (he had originally gone across to F&F in Aug 1914). I believe his burial with a CWGC headstone is more unusual in that he was no longer a seviceman at the time of his death. Perhaps Terry could clarify this as well?

[Bob Coulson]

Gwyn,

Many men in my local cemetery carry CWGC headstones with dates from the war years and also 1919, 1920.

Terry will confirm this but there was a criteria used as to if a mans death was as a result of his war service up to a cut off date round about 1921 then he qualified for a CWGC headstone.

Bob.

[Raster Scanning]

Gwyn

When wounded men were sent back to the UK no thought was given to putting them in a hospital near to their home and family.

If they died, effort was usually made to have them sent back to their family.

Pte Herbert Ware of the 7th Beds was from the village of Renhold in Bedfordshire. He was wounded by an aerial torpedo in 1915 and spent many months in hospital in Birmingham.

When he finally died his body was sent by train to Bedford and then bought to Renhold for burial.

He was given a full military funeral by a squad from the Monmouthshire Regiment camped in the village. The whole village attended the service.

Herbert Ware is on the CWGC data base, but has a privately erected stone, I think this is because the official stones were not erected until after the war, and some families did not want to wait.

It really depended on the situation. Some men were buried close to where they died if no representation (or money) was available to bring them home.

There are men of the 7th Beds buried at Codford St Mary and at Aldershot just because this is where the battalion was based at the time they died.

John.

[Andrew Hesketh]

In relation to this: in my 'home' cemetery are two men, one of whom died in 1916 of wounds in a British hospital who was refused a military funeral and has a private headstone and another who died in 1918 after discharge from the army. The first I can understand but the second confuses me slightly. This mans death certificate clearly expresses that death was caused as a direct result of gas poisoning - so the question is why was he not entitled to a CWGC headstone? Is it because he was discharged before death?

All the best,

Andrew

[Terry Denham]

There are 12,385 cemeteries in the UK which contain official war graves (both wars). They contain 172,012 casualties with war grave status.

When a Commonwealth serviceman died in his home country, the n-o-k were allowed two concessions not given to those of servicemen dying overseas.

1) The n-o-k were allowed to choose the burial location - either in a private plot or in a military cemetery.

2) They were permitted to select either a private memorial or have the CWGC headstone. Selection of a private stone in no way affects the grave's status as a war grave. CWGC stones were not available until the early 20s and some n-o-k had already erected private memorial headstones.

The qualification for war grave status for men/women dying in their home country was otherwise the same as those dying abroad. They had to be in service and die (of any cause whatsoever) between the qualifying dates

(WW1 04.08.14 to 31.08.21 and 03.09.39 to 31.12.47 WW2 inclusive).

Nobody is entitled to war grave status if they died outside the qualifying dates even if their death was obviously war related.

When it came to men who had resigned or been discharged, the rule is that they are entitled to war grave status (and CWGC headstone if the n-o-k wish) if they died after leaving service but between the qualifying dates and of a cause attributable to their military service between the qualifying dates. (Either wounds sustained or disease contracted during or exacerbated by service). This is not uncommon. The CWGC Debt of Honour entry, however, does not indicate whether the casualty was actually in service or had been discharged at time of death and so it is difficult to spot these cases.

The men mentioned in the last posting would both seem to be entitled to war grave status and would appear in the CWGC list. If the names are supplied this can be checked. The fact that they have private memorials is purely a decision of the n-o-k.

CWGC is not responsible for the upkeep of private memorials if so selected by the n-o-k but they do inspect them to see if the casualty's name is still visible. If it is not, they will seek permission from the n-o-k or more likely nowadays, the cemetery authorities, to erect a CWGC headstone & this is often seen in UK cemeteries - a CWGC stone with the remains of a private memorial still in situ. This process is complicated when other family members have been placed in the same grave.

[Terry Denham]

As an addition to my blurb above....

It is often a problem to prove that a discharged man is due war grave status because of the difficulty sometimes in proving the death was war related.

Many men suffered poor health after the war due to the privations they experienced. However, proving that death through an illness not obviously connected to their service (but very likely stemming from it) is not easy and many men have probably 'missed out' as a result.

Also, by the time 1921 came around many n-o-k were not thinking of the war and did not know they could get war grave status for their loved one. It is also fair to say that many people attributed a loved one's early death soon after the war to their war service but, in truth, they would probably have died of the illness anyway had they not served. The burden of proof was on the n-o-k (and still is).

[Dragon]

HUGE thanks for the replies.

I appreciate the time you have taken in writing informative responses.

Gwyn

[Jonathan Saunders]

Terry two more thoughts that Id be grateful if you could answer:

1) I believe if a man died in a hospital in say, Grimsby, his body could only be returned to the family in say, Sussex, for burial, if the family were prepared to meet the cost of transferring the body. Is this correct?

2) Would you agree it was impossible for someone who had probably been incapcitated and died through his war wounds to receive a CWGC stone after August 1922 than someone who worked for the Commission and died through natural causes in the mid-1920's ie. the CWGC workers who are buried at Pop and Albert spring to mind. I dont begrudge them there CWGC burial but just think even in death it was a case of who you know!

[Andrew Hesketh]

Thanks Terry. I'll ave to contact the CWGC. The name on the private memorial mentioned in my post is half gone, most of it having peeled off. As to second man, who lies in a unmarked grave, I have a copy of his death certificate which states his death was war related (he was discharged due to gas poisoning) and I have made contact with two relatives who would probably wish to see a CWGC headstone placed on the grave. Thanks again for the detailed response.

All the best,

Andrew

[Terry Denham]

Signals

I believe it is correct that cost of moving a casualty's body was the responsibility of the n-o-k - one reason for so many being in cemeteries remote from their home turf even within the UK.

Your second question seems to come out of a misunderstanding.

Firstly, NOBODY could get war grave status for WW1 after 31.08.21 (not 22 as you state). Same for WW2 with 31.12.47.

Secondly, CWGC staff do not have war grave status. They are classified as Non-War Dead (Staff) (Category 6 in the CWGC system). There are a number of CWGC overseas staff buried in their cemeteries worldwide but they are NOT war graves. There are only two in UK - one being Sir Fabian Ware.

Not everyone buried in a CWGC cemetery is a war grave.

When the new CWGC web site database is fully on line, you will see that the names in the database are classified in Categories 0-7 although the numbers will not appear in the records.

The categories are..

0 Commonwealth War Graves

1 WW2 Civilian War Dead

2 Foreign National War Dead

3 Non-World War Dead

4 Repatriation Register Dead (soon to be merged with Category 0)

5 Non-World War Dead (Incidental)

6 Non-World War Dead (Staff)

7 Foreign National Dead (Incidental)

Only those in Categories 0 and 4 have Commonwealth War Grave status.

For those interested... The Repatriation Register is a notional register of those casualties from Commonwealth forces who were of foreign nationality and who were repatriated (due to foreign government pressure) to their homeland after WW2 and whose final burial place is unknown - mostly Americans, French, Belgian etc. There are 211 WW2 names in this Register and one WW1.

This category is soon to be merged into the main war grave category (0) and a register placed at Brookwood for public viewing. However, the search for their final resting place goes on.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Terry - thanks for clearing up point 2. Sorry for year confusion - I meant Aug 1921.

[Terry Denham]

Andrew

All war graves including the private ones are inspected every 2/3 years by an area inspector.

You will often find private ones in a poor state of repair - it is unfortunately very common and CWGC cannot replace them all immediately. It can take many years to get permission to place a CWGC stone - apart from the cost. Good luck with your quest.

If you give me the name of the unmarked grave, I'll check to see if he has been recognised already as a war grave on the new CWGC site.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Cheers Terry, that's much appreciated. The unmarked grave belongs to:

Gration, Frank Alfred

12/380

12th York & Lancaster

Discharged as physically unfit for service on 10 June 1917.

Died 25 January 1918.

Son of Herbert Gration.

He is buried in Tibshelf Cemetery, Derbyshire. I know roughly where, but not precisely.

Neither the CWGC or SDITGW give any reference to this man or any similar, though he is on the village war memorial.

All the best,

Andrew

[Terry Denham]

Andrew

Frank Gration still does not appear in the CWGC lists.

This looks like a classic 'post-discharge' ommission. It is possible that his name has never been put forward for acceptance. This is often the case with those who died due to war causes after discharge but before the cut-off date.

I would suggest that you put all your evidence together and submit it to CWGC. However, I warn you that it will not be a swift process even if they agree that you have submitted sufficient evidence. The MoD will give final approval. My experience has been a timescale of 1-2 years but don't let that stop you! He deserves his recognition.

The crucial point will be - Did he die due to his injuries or did they significantly add to his poor health? That's the question you will have to answer beyond reasonable doubt.

On the other hand, it is also possible that he had been rejected for war grave status at the time for some reason. It is also possible that the n-o-k did not want him put forward for their own reasons. However, if CWGC/MoD agree that he qualifies, the n-o-k's wishes cannot be taken into account. CWGC have no choice but to grant war grave status according to their Charter.

Good Luck. Let us know how you get on.

[john w.]

My Dad has the same headstone as CWGC he was in the RAF and was killed in a motor cycle accident back in 1954 when I was six months old. His was not due to enemy action.

John

[Terry Denham]

John

You may find that his headstone is of the Non-World War Pattern as this is the style which should be properly used for non-war grave military headstones.

It looks the same as an official war grave headstone but has the top corners cut out. An earlier version was again similar to the war grave stone but had a double curve to the top without the corners being cut out. Only official war graves should have the standard CWGC stone but there may be exceptions.

These Non-World War Pattern headstones are still in use today for servicemen who have died outside the war grave qualifying periods and for 'old soldiers'. They are either provided privately or by the MoD (but I suspect that they are purchased from CWGC as the workmanship and style is identical).

I know of at least one grave locally in Sussex where someone has copied the CWGC War Grave Pattern headstone without permission (an old soldier). Technically this is a breach of CWGC's copyright but I don't think they will sue !!!!!

[Mark A]

Terry-

Regarding war grave status- 31.08.21 for WW1 and WW2 with 31.12.47. Why 1921 and 1947? I guess they were arbitrarily choosen as there had to be a cut off point at some point?

Mark

[Terry Denham]

Mark

They were not arbitrary dates.

31.08.21 was the date that the UK Parliament declared that the Great War was over following the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. Until that date the war was still technically going on. Indeed, fighting did continue for Commonwealth troops in various parts of the world - Russia, India, Ireland, Iraq etc and there were still deaths during occupation duties and battlefield clearance plus those dying of wounds.

11.11.18 was only an armistice - a temporary cessation of fighting. Indeed the armistice had to be extended on a number of occasions until the peace treay was signed. In East Africa the armistice didn't even come into effect until a few days after the 11th (I forget the exact date!) due to the problems of communication.

When it came to WW2, there was no need for a peace treaty as the Axis countries surrendered unconditionally. However, IWGC decided to allow roughly the same post-war period for war grave status - ie 31.12.47. The same reasons applied - post-war duties and continued fighting - Palestine, Greece, India, Indonesia etc.

[john w.]

Cheers Terry

Thanks

John

[Andrew Hesketh]

Terry,

Thanks again. I'll have to talk to his living relatives about whether they would like to put in an application. I believe he deserves the right to recognition and I think we have sufficient evidence, but I'm not the one to say really.

Also you are probably right about n-o-k attitudes. When I checked his medal roll it noted that the family had sent his medals back. Descendants have told me that this is in line with the family 'mentality' of the day - they felt robbed and cheated and regarded the medals as a pathetic compensation for their loss.

Moral question: should I pursue the recognition that those who loved him spurned? I'd welcome any opinions on this that readers would like to express.

Andrew

[Terry Denham]

Andrew

Personally, I would attempt to have him recognised as you do not know what his own wish would be.

The CWGC operate the rule that all must be commemorated as nobody has the right to deny a casualty that recognition if entitlement is proved.

However, the decision is yours. Follow your own conscience.

[Mark A]

Cheers Terry- really interesting. I'm inspired now to find out what I can about"my" local CWWG headstones- or rather, the men buried beneath them.

[Terry Denham]

Be careful, Mark. That's how I started.

You can get some quite smart anoraks these days!

[john w.]

Terry

For the record, my dad's headstone

John