Unusual crew transfers to H.M.S. GOOD HOPE, 17 August 1914

[Malcolm12hl]

On 17 August 1914, 16 men, most of them signals or catering ratings, were transferred from H.M.S. SUFFOLK to H.M.S. GOOD HOPE at the same time as Rear Admiral Christopher Craddock transferred his flag to the latter vessel off Halifax (the two ship's Captains switched places as well).  This is all in line with what was recorded in SUFFOLK's log book.  On the same day, however, two other transfers to the GOOD HOPE are recorded in the men in question's Registers of Service, 9 from H.M.S MUTINE and no fewer than 39 from H.M.S. EXCELLENT.  The smaller transfer from the MUTINE (8 stokers and 1 E.R.A.) might simply be a delayed book-keeping exercise as the MUTINE was a survey ship based at Bermuda, and the SUFFOLK had been at that port in the recent past.  The draft from the EXCELLENT, composed of long service, senior men, including 16 Petty Officers or C.P.O.s, is more difficult to understand.  EXCELLENT of course was the Gunnery School at Portsmouth, and while GOOD HOPE was a Portsmouth ship, she had sailed from that port almost two weeks before.  I assume these men must have actually joined GOOD HOPE in Portsmouth, but if they were intended for her crew, why are they not shown as having been transferred before she sailed?  I would be interested to hear what members might think was going on.

[horatio2]

It is difficult to comment precisely without having seen the individual records. What must be borne in mind, however, is that entries in the record do not necessarily show precisely where an individual was on a particular day but actually record the name of the ship on whose books he was borne. Thus a man could appear to be physically present in HMS NONSUCH (borne on the books) whereas he might in fact be on leave, on course, in hospital or a number of other reasons for his being away from NONSUCH. For the 39 ratings from HMS EXCELLENT, it is most likely that they were still borne on the books of EXCELLENT even though they had been transferred to GOOD HOPE and that the transfer to GOOD HOPE's books was delayed by the administrative overload in getting the Fleet manned in late July and August 1914.

[Malcolm12hl]

Thank you Horatio.  Here is a small sample of the men involved if you would like to have a look at their records.

 

Petty Officer WILLIAM FREDERICK BELLINGER 184317

Shipwright 1st Class LIONEL BERTRAM GOULD 342695

Leading Seaman JOHN HOYLAND 190653

Chief Petty Officer CHARLES JESSE SOUTER 169027

 

I know that entries in individual records do not always correspond with the physical whereabouts of the individual concerned, and I agree that administrative overload might have produced a delay in updating records, but I wonder if it is also possible that the GOOD HOPE might originally have shipped these men to transfer them to another posting, and a change was made at Craddock's request when he transferred his flag to her.

 

 

[horatio2]

The one thing that these four men have in common is that they are all on the books of GOOD HOPE as List 17 (supernumeraries). Regulations for 'Supers' are very messy (there were several classes of 'super') but KR&AI (1913) states:-

 

1569. Persons on Passage.-Persons borne for passage from one ship to another are to be entered on List 17 of the Ledger of the ship conveying them, for the purpose of showing the dates of victualling, and of noting any charges incurred during passage. All such charges are to be shown in the proper columns of the ledger and duly brought to account in the classified summary, and the total of the charges incurred by each person is to be shown as a debt against his name on the original transfer list or pay ticket, which is to accompany them to the ship to which they are ultimately discharged. The dates, with the fact of their having been victualled during the passage, are also to be noted, both on the transfer list, or pay ticket, and in the " date " and " lent " columns of the victualling section of the ledger of the ship to which they are discharged, as laid down in Article 1573.

 

If they had been GOOD HOPE Ship's Company they would have be borne as List 5.

It is unfortunate they we cannot, at this remove, determine for which ship they were destined or account for the date discrepancy.

[Guest]

  As 3 of the 4 were obviously  of long service by their ranks, I thought they might be on passage to be discharged at home port-  probably carried south to Port Stanley and then transferred to a homeward bound ship. But this cannot be.  As it is, all 4  were second term men-  all had done their 12 year enlistment and were on second terms "to complete".  Thus, discharge is unlikely. And the date of transfer for each of them is 17th August 1914-after the outbreak of war- so they would not have been discharged anyway.

    I still suspect they were on passage to Port Stanley to transfer.

 

[Malcolm12hl]

Thank you for clarifying the status of these men as Supernumeraries - I was not aware of the significance of the number 17 in the ledger column.  Is there a source I can consult to find explanations of all the relevant numbers so that I can spare the Forum similar questions in the future?

 

I doubt that the men were on passage to Port Stanley to transfer, as the GOOD HOPE had not been ordered to the South Atlantic when she left Portsmouth.

[horatio2]

These are useful links to KR&AI (1913):-

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/KR&AI/Index.html

http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/KR&AI_1913_Vol_II/Index.html

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/genealogy/RN/List_Numbers.htm#1913

[Malcolm12hl]

Thank you Horatio.  This will be of great assistance to me as I continue my work on the lost crews of R.N. vessels sunk early in the war.

 

Malcolm

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Malcolm12hl said:

Thank you for clarifying the status of these men as Supernumeraries - I was not aware of the significance of the number 17 in the ledger column.  Is there a source I can consult to find explanations of all the relevant numbers so that I can spare the Forum similar questions in the future?

 

I doubt that the men were on passage to Port Stanley to transfer, as the GOOD HOPE had not been ordered to the South Atlantic when she left Portsmouth.

 

     True- the Port Stanley was a speculation- I am aware that Good Hope wandered all over the place  both before and after the outbreak of war.  The only additional source I could suggest is,perhaps, the ships logs of the ships they last served on, in case there was any entry as to why they were transferred.

[BrianD]

According to my Great grandfathers yeoman signalman Charles W Gould war journal, he was mobilized on Aug 2 1914 to join HMS Good Hope in Portsmouth for transit to HMS Sappho stationed in Scapa Flow. On Aug 5, off the coast of Ireland, war was declared and orders were changed to proceed to Gulf of St Lawrence. The Sappho's crew was off loaded on Aug 15th to HMCS Niobe, with the exception of Chief Yeoman of Signals William Jones and my ggf C.W. Gould who stayed with Good Hope.

 

On the 16th the HMS Good Hope received Admiral Craddock and the other transfers. On the 17th they sailed for Bermuda. See clipping.

Note: This war journal is housed in the IWM in London