trajan Posted 17 January , 2019 Share Posted 17 January , 2019 Hmmm... This one looks interesting and odd... Published by the Russian boys who wrote what is in effect the new Carter volume 1 (V.V.Vorontsov and D.V.Vorontsov, ШТЫКИ ГЕРМАНИИ. Pfm 71/98, S98/02, S98/05 (Moscow 2015).... Bear in mind that the earliest reference to the making of the 98/05 is on 1st April 1905 - the production of "ein kürzeres Seitengewehr", a 'shortened sideram', for Pionieren, etc., this new design ("einem neuen Muster") being intended to replace the S.98/02 (Kriegs-Ministerium, Allgemeines Kriegs-Department, Nr. 1060/3.05.A2). A W/04 doesn't make any sense except as a trials... Does anyone have enough Russian to read the caption? I have native Russian speakers to hand, as it were (neighbours!), but a bit too late to check with them right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuluwar2006 Posted 17 January , 2019 Share Posted 17 January , 2019 Julian, there was indeed an experimentaly model of S 98/05, but i have never seen this before. i have to check my archives about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 17 January , 2019 Share Posted 17 January , 2019 Hi Julian, Interesting bayonet; I look forward to reading the translation of the text in the book. There is something of a precedent in that at page 400 of The Collectors Book of German Bayonets by Roy Williams he illustrates a "S98/00 Trials Bayonet" marked Crown W00. It is, save for some relatively minor differences, identical to the S98/02. Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2019 Hi Michael, Yes, there were several versions of the S.98 trials as I know you will be aware of. I will try to check later today the German text for the introduction of the S.98/05 - I have a copy of the Prussian communique on this as preserved in the Bavarian achives but evidently not every decision on weapons matters was communicated immediately to Bavaria: e.g., the decision to drop the S.98 in favour of the S.98/05, although the failure to communicate that might be explained by the urgency of the matter - the beginnings of trench warfare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2019 Well, apart from the obvious bits at the start, so "S.98/05 'aAS'", and "Prussia", a little try at Google gave me for the first lines (in red) - "old-style bayonet in leather and with a saw on the butt"! I'll hand over to a neighbour... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, trajan said: ... I will try to check later today the German text for the introduction of the S.98/05 - I have a copy of the Prussian communique on this as preserved in the Bavarian achives but evidently not every decision on weapons matters was communicated immediately to Bavaria: e.g., the decision to drop the S.98 in favour of the S.98/05, although the failure to communicate that might be explained by the urgency of the matter - the beginnings of trench warfare! OK, I checked the German archives on this - or those bits I have copies of, which is not to say that more might be available in Munich (perhaps I should do a crowd-funding here for a visit - I had planned for next week but 1500 EU plus for a 3-star hotel Jack Sheldon recommended put me off!). A Prussian KMinisterium communique dated 01 April 1905, Nr.1060/3.05A.2., to the Bavarian KM, reads as follows: "Dem königlichen Kriegsministerium beehrt sich das Department ganz ergebenst mitzuteilen, daß die General Inspektion des Ingenieuer-und Pionierkorps und der Festungen ein kürzeres Seitengewehr wünscht, als die Seitengwehr 98/02 und mit einem nueuen Muster Versuche anstellt. Es ist deshalb die Anfertigung von Seitengwehren 98/02 vorläufig ausgesetz worden." "The Imperial War Ministry informs you respectfully that the General Inpection of Engineers and Pionier Korps have expressed the wish to the department for a shorter Sidearm than the 98/02, and tests with a new pattern have begun / are in progress[?]. Therefore, the manufacture of Seitengwehren 98/02 is provisionally suspended." Well, as I noted in post no.4, I do not know how complete the Bavarian archives are on this matter of the introduction of the 98/05 - remember the Prussian ones were mainly destroyed in WW2 so no help there. There could be other relevant stuff lurking in Munich, or in other archives - e.g., Saxony and Wurttemburg, with their own War Ministries. But from this communique above, from Berlin to Bavaria, it is clear that trials of what became the 98/05 were in progress by early 1905, so the possibilty exists that this W/04 98/05 is indeed a trials version. Be that as it may, the bayonet was not introduced formally into military service until 20th November 1905 - Preuss.Armee-Verord.Blatt 27, p. 349. Edited 18 January , 2019 by trajan Correct syntax, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2019 (edited) Haven't done the Russian for this 1904 example yet, but I have found an reference earlier than 01 April (quited above) implying the S.98/05 was in development in 1904. I don't have the full text but Bayer. KB, MKr. 4011, is a copy of a Decree of the Prussian War Ministry of 27 February 1905, stating how the M 98/02 bayonets will be withdrawn for use by Landwehr engineer and foot artillery formations... So, work presumably in progress already on what becomes the S.98/05... Edited 19 January , 2019 by trajan spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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