Qatia prisoners in Jerusalem, May 1916

[Stuart24]

Hello all,

 

I am trying to pinpoint where the British prisoners captured at Qatia/Katia on 23 April 1916 were held when they passed through Jerusalem on 5-6 May 1916.   They arrived at the railway station (now disused, at least as a station) south of the Old City, near the current site of St. Andrew’s Church.

 

I have several accounts from the prisoners themselves.  The officers and other ranks were kept separately.  Two officers say that they were taken by carriage to a ‘hospital’ (presumably could also be a hospice), and both mention that they were taken ‘across the road’ to ‘the Convent of St. Jean’/’St Jean Convent’ for meals.  One of these officers, Major Bell, says that this ‘St. Jean Convent’ was a headquarters.   He also says that from the building he could look out over Jerusalem and see the Mount of Olives ‘opposite’.  The other officer, Lt. Holyoake, doesn’t give any other details, except that to get back the railway station to resume their journey they went past the Jaffa Gate.

 

The other rank I have, Cpl Dabbs, records being marched into the Old City, through it, and out through the Damascus Gate.  He doesn’t say which way they turned out of the gate, but describes being taken to a building that had been an Italian School.  From there, they could see over the Old City and towards the Mount of Olives in front of them, and towards St George’s Anglican Cathedral to their left.

 

I also have the account of an Ottoman soldier (Ihsan Turjman)who saw the prisoners march through the city.  He was not only stationed in Jerusalem, but had grown up there and knew the city well, although he gets the date wrong by a week.  He says that the ‘officers were lodged in the hospital opposite the Commissariat (Notre Dame de France).  Soldiers were incarcerated in a bigger building nearby, on Soap Factory Road.’

 

Now, the Notre Dame de France is on the bottom corner of Jaffa Street, on IDF Square and opposite the New Gate.  This location partially fits with the British accounts – it was used by the Ottoman Army, you can get to it by turning left out of the Damascus Gate, and the quickest way from there back to the railway station is past the Jaffa Gate.  It fits with the hospital/hospice description, and it does indeed look over the city towards the Mount of Olives.

 

However, I can’t identify the ‘Convent of St. Jean’, or ‘Soap Factory Road’, or any Italian Schools.   There is an Italian hospital about 500m (?) away on the corner of Ha’Nevi’im Street/Shivtei Israel Street, which was apparently used by the Ottoman army during the war which is a possible fit. 

 

Does anyone have any other ideas on where any of these could be?  Or indeed any other accounts that help pin down the locations of the prisoners? 

 

Thanks!

Stuart

[michaeldr]

15 hours ago, Stuart24 said:

I also have the account of an Ottoman soldier (Ihsan Turjman)who saw the prisoners march through the city.  He was not only stationed in Jerusalem, but had grown up there and knew the city well, although he gets the date wrong by a week.  He says that the ‘officers were lodged in the hospital opposite the Commissariat (Notre Dame de France).  Soldiers were incarcerated in a bigger building nearby, on Soap Factory Road.’

 

Stuart,

Opposite the Notre Dame de France is the St Louis French Hospital (on this site since 1881)

The Conde de Ballobar mentions the prisoners (21 officers and about 130 soldiers) but alas he gives no clues as to where they were kept

regards

Michael

Edited 17 January , 2019 by michaeldr

[Stuart24]

Thanks Michael!

 

 

[Simon_Fielding]

I never knew there was so much to know about soap production in Ottoman Palestine!

 

Google Books has:

 

Cohen, A. (1989). A soap-factory in Jerusalem. In Economic Life in Ottoman Jerusalem(Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization, p. 152). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/CBO9780511523960.012

 

and: (my emmphasis)

 

Summary
The flourishing soap-making industry in sixteenth-century Jerusalem underwent a gradual decline until, during the late Ottoman period, it ground to a halt. Unlike Nablus, where Ottoman soap-factories are still operational today, hardly any remnants of maṣbanas can be identified in present-day Jerusalem.

Any extant vestiges should naturally be sought in the quarter known as the Khan al-Zayt (olive oil marketplace) south of Damascus gate. Shaykh Asʿad al-'Imām, an authority on local history and a scholar in his own right, was kind enough to help us locate the only remains of a maṣbana still to be found in Jerusalem. House Number 37 in Khān al-Zayt belongs to the al-Quṭayna family, known in the nineteenth century for their intensive involvement in the production of oil as well as soap. Part of the building is used as their residence; the rest is derelict but extremely impressive from our standpoint.

The second storey is a huge hall, 29 × 16.40 meters. It had at least 20 stone pillars supporting the arches on which the roof rested. (Cf: sijill, vol. 77, pp. 340–1, describing another soap-factory in Jerusalem introduced in the late sixteenth century into an old building, where the roof rests on 24 pillars and 30 arches.) The pillars are 145 × 125 cm. each, rising at the highest point of the arch to 3.30 meters.

 

A Baedecker map of Jerusalem in 1910:

 

 

There's a 'Khan ez Zett' directly south of the Damascus Gate 'Bab el 'Amuds' - the Jaffa Gate due west - possible?

[Stuart24]

Wow, thanks Simon!  I tried following the Soap Factory line and got repeatedly bogged down in references to Nablus.

 

Looking again at Dabbs, it could be read that they went past the Damascus Gate, turning deeper into the Old City:

 

"We entered the city by one of the gates and went up a long narrow street full of shops with the names printed over them in Arabic, Hebrew, and German characters... After winding about we crossed an open place full of sun with another gate – the Damascus gate I afterwards heard – passed through into a covered bazaar, then out into an open lane between white walls and then, turning in at a door in a wall, entered a large quiet garden of cypresses with a stone building in the middle of it.

 

Into the coolness of this we marched – it was all stone walls and floor like a church.

 

I heard afterwards it was an Italian school before the war. In each room were mattresses, blankets and pillows placed all round the walls and all very clean-looking. Instantly we took off our boots and lay down to sleep. After three or four hours, about 4 p.m., we began to think about a meal and on asking the Arab sentries we were told “Baaden” – “soon.”

 

I awoke early in the morning and went out on the balcony. Straight before me stood the Mount of Olives, a mile or two outside the walls and still covered with olive trees of a large size. To the left lay the English Church – St. George's Cathedral – in the midst of fields, a stone building with a tower and looking for all the world like a village church in England. Every way that I looked were churches, of every style. Quite near to us was a very fine new one of brick built in the Byzantine style, the Italian Church and next to it the Italian Hospital. Between us and this hospital ran a street and gathered here, watching us with interested or indolent eyes according to their race, were some of the motley population of Jerusalem."

 

I was reading 'passed through' to refer to the Gate itself, but it could refer to going through the 'open place' and then down Tarik Bab el Amaa.

 

However, the 'new' Italian and hospital still fits the other site further north... 

Thanks again!

Stuart

 

Edited 17 January , 2019 by Stuart24

[michaeldr]

21 hours ago, Stuart24 said:

Two officers say that they were taken by carriage to a ‘hospital’ (presumably could also be a hospice), and both mention that they were taken ‘across the road’ to ‘the Convent of St. Jean’/’St Jean Convent’ for meals.  One of these officers, Major Bell, says that this ‘St. Jean Convent’ was a headquarters.  

 

The crops below are of a map and its key

Note in the latter that 11=S.Joh.Kloster (which I take to be St. John/Jean)

On the map No.11 is in the bottom LEFT hand corner of the Muristan 

Edited to correct right to LEFT hand corner

 

Edited 17 January , 2019 by michaeldr

[Stuart24]

Thanks Michael!

I'm not sure how much reliance to put on 'St Jean', weighed against Turjman who knew the city far better.  I'm going to have to think about that some more.

Thanks again!

Stuart

 

[michaeldr]

Stuart,

 

You are right to be sceptical – a prisoner passing a mere 24 hours (or less) in a place will no doubt make a mistake or two in its geography

Nevertheless, what is interesting is that it is placed so close to the centre of German activity within the walled city; William Street and the Protestant Church of The Redeemer, built by the Kaiser. 

In the map below it is point No.29

 

 

best regards

Michael

[Eran Tearosh]

 

Stuart,

 

You wrote: Two officers say that they were taken by carriage to a ‘hospital’ (presumably could also be a hospice), and both mention that they were taken ‘across the road’ to ‘the Convent of St. Jean’/’St Jean Convent’ for meals.  One of these officers, Major Bell, says that this ‘St. Jean Convent’ was a headquarters.   He also says that from the building he could look out over Jerusalem and see the Mount of Olives ‘opposite’. 

 

All these details fit perfectly the first site of the St John of Jerusalem Eye Hospital,  today the Mt. Zion Hotel. There's a small permanent exhibition at the North-West wing of the hotel that relates mostly to the improvised tiny military cable car that connected the ex-hospital structure and Mt. Zion. However, the display also relates to the different phases in the history of the group of structures. If it works out - I'll gladly take you there. 

 

 

As to Cpl Dabbs report: No doubt at all, it is the place you referred to, North of the Old City (There is an Italian hospital about 500m (?) away on the corner of Ha’Nevi’im Street/Shivtei Israel Street, which was apparently used by the Ottoman army during the war which is a possible fit). Today it is a part of the Ministry of Education. Interesting to note that that's where the Mayor of Jerusalem picked those white sheets that were used for the attempts to surrender the city on Dec. 9th, 1917.

You wrote: Looking again at Dabbs, it could be read that they went past the Damascus Gate, turning deeper into the Old City. No! That is definitely walking away from the walled city.  

 

 

 

As to Ishan Turjman's account: The Notre Dame de France was used as an Ottoman military HQ, and as Michael wrote - the building next to it is the St Louis French Hospital. Beautiful structure and a very interesting place to visit. During a roadshow a did a couple of years ago in Australia, a couple of lovely ladies approached me with their grandfather's photo album. The first photo I encountered was the Ottoman military HQ at the Notre Dame de France...

 

 

 

 

As to the soap industry: Still exists, mostly in Nablus, as you found out. In the past, Olive Oil based soap was much more popular, and I can take you to many structures throughout the country, that were used as soap factories - in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Ramleh, Ludd etc. Although considered healthy (so I'm told), the Olive Oil based soap is less popular today, probably as it creates almost no foam...

I'm not familiar with a 'Soap Factory Road', but Khan el-Zayt that Simon referred to was, and still is, the major North-South axis of the Old City, between the Muslim and Christian quarters. However, sounds that the 'Soap Factory Road' that we are searching for is outside the walls, just next to the Notre Dame.

 

Eran 

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 January , 2019 by Eran Tearosh

[Stuart24]

Thanks Eran!  That is great information, and exactly what I needed.

 

I intend to trace the route the PoWs took later in the year, out of personal interest but also because I give talks on Qatia and am currently trying to get Dabb's memoirs published.  There isn't much of his route into captivity that you can trace down to this level, and then he spent the rest of the war working at a hospital in Damascus, which is obviously inaccessible, so walking in some of his steps in Jerusalem will be great.

 

There were a few other things that I wanted to ask your advice on, and will email you soon - but I'll definitely be taking you up on your offer of showing me the Eye Hospital if we can find a convenient date!

 

All the best, and thanks again
Stuart

 

[Simon_Fielding]

An outstanding post Eran - thank you.

[DB4rc]

On 21/01/2019 at 11:51, Stuart24 said:

Thanks Eran!  That is great information, and exactly what I needed.

 

I intend to trace the route the PoWs took later in the year, out of personal interest but also because I give talks on Qatia and am currently trying to get Dabb's memoirs published.  There isn't much of his route into captivity that you can trace down to this level, and then he spent the rest of the war working at a hospital in Damascus, which is obviously inaccessible, so walking in some of his steps in Jerusalem will be great.

 

There were a few other things that I wanted to ask your advice on, and will email you soon - but I'll definitely be taking you up on your offer of showing me the Eye Hospital if we can find a convenient date!

 

All the best, and thanks again
Stuart

Stuart, This makes for fascinating reading. I am a relative of one of the potential PoW's captured at Qatia, with Lt.Col. Hon. Charles Coventry of the 5th Mounted Brigade/Worcestershire Hussars (Yeomanry), and am trying my best to piece together what had happened to him in WW1. Lt. G.B. Wright was one of three Worcs Hussars repatriated in 21 Nov 1918 at Alexandria, and I have to assume that they were kept together from capture until repatriation. I have seen an unsubstantiated hearsay that he was in Damascus. I'd appreciate learning any more if you're still active in your research. David.

[Stuart24]

Hello David,

Did you know that the letters of Lieutenant George B Wright are held at the QOWH Museum in Worcester?  I can't remember now whether they are the originals or copies (I made copies of them nearly 20 years ago), but they run from August 1915 to March 1916, then there's a break until January 1917, by which time he is a PoW at Yozgad in Turkey.  There's no mention of him being in Damascus, although the column of PoWs did pass through that city, and I think spend a night there.

I haven't made it to Jerusalem to trace their steps yet - last year's plans all went awry - but I'm determined to do it this year!

All the best

Stuart

 

 

 

[DB4rc]

On 20/01/2020 at 13:08, Stuart24 said:

Hello David,

Did you know that the letters of Lieutenant George B Wright are held at the QOWH Museum in Worcester?  I can't remember now whether they are the originals or copies (I made copies of them nearly 20 years ago), but they run from August 1915 to March 1916, then there's a break until January 1917, by which time he is a PoW at Yozgad in Turkey.  There's no mention of him being in Damascus, although the column of PoWs did pass through that city, and I think spend a night there.

I haven't made it to Jerusalem to trace their steps yet - last year's plans all went awry - but I'm determined to do it this year!

All the best

Stuart

 

 

 

Stuart,

 

Sorry about a tardy response to your last post but I must have failed to tick the 'notify option'. As a result of spotting Simon Fielding's email address amongst this thread, I'd contacted him and he very kindly responded with some further links. I have been reading extracts of two books: 'The Road to Yozgad by Holyoake' and also 'The Road to En-Dor by Elias Henry Jones', in which my Great Uncle's (GUG) camera was light-fingered and used as the means to compromise the Prison Camp Governor. I think all the photos within are from that camera.

 

I HAVE made contact with the Worcs Yeomanry Museum and they reported they have many letters and objects of his. I intend to pay a visit in due course. Whilst a surprise it's also perhaps understandable as GUG and my mother's Aunt were childless, although their housemaid became something of a surrogate daughter and is still just about 'with us'.

 

I am amused that Holyoake credits GUG with being a stage-hand for a play. He was very much an engineer and craftsman and he joined the family firm (his mother was the eldest daughter of George Heaton of William Hunt & Sons in Oldbury (see in Wiki)). He became Joint MD with his older brother before retiring and the firm being subsumed into Nash Tyzack and then Spear & Jackson. My chain of investigation into him began as a result of a discussion with my father about previous wider-family house visits. It turns out that the panelling that he installed in one house is now the cause of a Grade Listing on that house. I remember him as being a gentle giant that never said 'boo-to-a-goose', which is appropriate as he and my Great Aunt became farmers and did have geese amongst many things, including pedigree Dexter Cattle.

 

His father, Mr Harold Wright was quite a character too: he was a Stipendary Magistrate and a wannabe politician from the Bright/Chamberlain sect. He was also a renowned cartoonist, published in Vanity Fair (see 'Stuff' or 'Spy'), so it wasn't a complete surprise to see in Holyoake's book, that GUG had drawn the camp.

 

My paternal grandfather also served with the EEF and indeed was nearby GUG when he was captured. He was a 2Lt in 1/1st Hants RFA and is mentioned in a 'Diary' as being one of the FOO's in the Battle of Romani. It's quite tricky trying to follow his actual service through the remainder of the campaign as there were so many reorgansisations. But he ended the Middle East theatre as a Major commanding a battery and gained a MC, although we're unable to find the reason for the award. he continued to serve in Palestine and married the eldest daughter of the Administrator of Palestine, Maj. Gen. Sir H.D. Watson. My father was born in Nazareth.

 

If you're interested, you can find more details about all that in another feed: 

 

I hope you and others enjoy these ancillary, biographical tangents.

 

DB.

[Simon_Fielding]

Wright is also in the list of officers imprisoned at Yozgad in the memoir 'The Road to En-Dor' by EH Jones which has a very useful new edition reinforced by notes and background material..

 

https://www.hesperuspress.com/the-road-to-en-dor/

 

A strange book - hugely popular after the war but not so now... 

[Stuart24]

Hello David,

 

Thanks for the extra details - interesting!  

 

If you're going to the Worcester Yeomanry museum, there's also the diary of Major Walter Bell, who was a PoW too.  There are also at least one PoW memoir by an Other Rank, although I don't think the one I can definitely think of (Geoff Dabbs) mentions officers much, and he spent most of the war in Damascus,

The Road to En Dor is an amazing book (as is the shorter 'The Spook and the Commandant' by Hill, the RFC officer involved). It has to be one of the most incredible escape stories ever written, and given our slight obsession with Second World War escape attempts, I'm always surprised that it isn't better known.  There was a production company a few years ago trying to gain interest in making it into a film (no doubt with either Jones or Hill suddenly and inexplicably American), but obviously nothing has been made yet.  A very good idea though!

 

I've finally got a route plotted to cover all of the key points in Jerusalem, so thank you to everyone who has helped me with that.  I hope to go in late spring to walk the route (and see a few other things) and will attempt to piece together a short film of the route as it is today.  I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks again
Stuart

 

 

 

[DB4rc]

19 hours ago, Stuart24 said:

Hello David,

 

Thanks for the extra details - interesting!  

 

If you're going to the Worcester Yeomanry museum, there's also the diary of Major Walter Bell, who was a PoW too.  There are also at least one PoW memoir by an Other Rank, although I don't think the one I can definitely think of (Geoff Dabbs) mentions officers much, and he spent most of the war in Damascus,

The Road to En Dor is an amazing book (as is the shorter 'The Spook and the Commandant' by Hill, the RFC officer involved). It has to be one of the most incredible escape stories ever written, and given our slight obsession with Second World War escape attempts, I'm always surprised that it isn't better known.  There was a production company a few years ago trying to gain interest in making it into a film (no doubt with either Jones or Hill suddenly and inexplicably American), but obviously nothing has been made yet.  A very good idea though!

 

I've finally got a route plotted to cover all of the key points in Jerusalem, so thank you to everyone who has helped me with that.  I hope to go in late spring to walk the route (and see a few other things) and will attempt to piece together a short film of the route as it is today.  I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks again
Stuart

 

 

 

Stuart,

 

Thanks for your content. I have received copies of the PoW letters that my GUG wrote and whilst there is nothing earth-shattering within or necessarily of specific interest to the wider public, it does provide an interesting backdrop and an insight to life as it was. He was an optimist. I shall be visiting the museum later in the year when work and familial events allow an opening.

 

Your comments about the story not being known rings so true. I have already commented to others, since learning of it, that I am amazed someone hadn't picked up on it for a film.

 

I hope you have a successful and enjoyable trip to Jerusalem.

 

BW,

David B.

[assafx]

Stuart,

 

Here is an image from "yad Ben Zvi", Jerusalem, showing the POW's marching near the Jaffa Gate (roughly the area circled in red in the google earth image).

This image was published in: " Benjamin Z. Kedarת The Changing Land between the Jordan and the Sea: Aerial photographs from 1917 to the Present. Yad Ben-Zvi and Israel Ministry of Defense: Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, 1999. 208 pp"

 

Assaf

 

[Stuart24]

Thanks Assaf!

I'd found that image in the US Library of Congress, but it's great to have a solid location on where it was taken (I'd thought it was further south on that road).

They also have this image - do you know where this would be?  It appears to be at a higher elevation, so I was thinking it is on one of the roads on the Western side of Mitchell Park, but I can't find that building on any of the Google Maps/Street Views.

Thanks again!

Stuart

[michaeldr]

Stuart

 

I believe that the men are about to march passed the Ophthalmic Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (building on the lefthand border).

There is more on that in this old thread; see https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/107205-british-hospital-bombed/#comment-1018900

In short, it was taken over by the Turks and blown up by them just before they left Jerusalem.

The building was also referred to by Eran in his earlier/above post

 

regards

Michael

[assafx]

I'm agreeing with Eran and Michael, a good indication of your location will be the Abbey of the Dormition and its relation to the photograph.

There is a good chance that the road they are marching on in your photograph, is the road on the right side of the image that i've posted.

If i understood the description on the book then the area of the first photograph is visible also in yours.

 

Assaf

 

[michaeldr]

Stuart,

 

You'll find the building in the bottom left hand corner of this 1915 map where it is named as St. John's Hospital

 

If larger magnification is required the use this link https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/modern_jerusalem_1915.jpg

Edited 4 March , 2020 by michaeldr

[Stuart24]

Thank you Michael and Assaf!  I'd been trying to 'triangulate' on the towers using Google Street View, but between the way the image distorts when you pan and trees keep getting in the way, I wasn't getting very far.  This has saved me a lot of potential legwork walking around the wrong streets!

 

Thanks again,
Stuart

[Guest]

I live very close by - I think the building you see in the picture is still standing (though modified), today it's part of the Mount Zion Hotel. See https://goo.gl/maps/K81Z5e6p3LMznsv96.

[Tosun Saral]

Source: Cav. Col. (R) Şerif Güralp "Bir Askerin Günlüğünden Çanakkale Cephesinden Filistin'e" (From the Diary of a Soldier From Çanakkale(Gallipoli) to Palastine.) 2nd Addition 2003, p. 74

April 20th 1916
Von Kress the commander of 1st Expedition Forces with 2 battalions of 32nd R, 2nd Hecinsüvar (Camel Raiders) Company, Hecinsüvar R of the city of Medina volunteers moved to Al Ariş. After a while they returned with an enemy Cavalry Regiment taken POW. We both have many wounded. I dont write anything about that fight becauıse I was not there. But I was ordered by the commander of the Division to keep and care the enemy Pows. I could speak French as every Turkish officer. I spoke no word English. For that reason an Egyptian Turk called Lt. Hanefi who spoke English very good come to assist me. We prepared the camp for the new comers. The POWs come very dirty, exausted, tired of long walkings. I settled the officers in conical tents and the men in portable tents. The commanding officer was a Col. There were 23 officers and men were more then 300. They had some 100 wounded. I ordered all barbers of the division to shave all of them. I also got ready hot water for them to take a bath.
The Col. asked me if it was possible to buy new and clean underwears from the army shop. We had no army shop. I thought for a second what I could do for them. I had an extra clean under wear in my own bag. I decied to give it to the colonel. But for other 23 officers? I saluted him and said "Ok Sir I will do that."
I requested commander of the Regiment to present the clean underwears of all officers to British POWs. After half an hour my tent was full of clean underwears like in a Turkish weekly bazaar. I gave the wear to the British officers. They took their bath I offered the a breakfast.
After the breakfast the Col asked me "Lt how much shall we pay for all?"
I said " You need not pay for anything. Those under wears are present of all Turkish officers. You are our guests of 48 hours. For other facilities the government is paying."
I ordered not to guard them with armed men. They rested in their tents. Towards evening the col. of English asked me to visit the wounded with him. The wounded were resting in 20 capacity great Bowman tents. The regimental doctor Captain Şerafettin Bey was careing them. The English doctor spoke also French. Two colleques were understanding each other very easly. The English doctor gave information in French to his Commander . In the 2nd tent Turkish and English wounded were lying together. They were all happy. The commander of the regiment asked the men how they feel.
I asked him to visit the 3rd tent. He didnt want to visit saying that "You are careing our wounde like your own wounded. That pleased me.
That night the Divisions commander and his CoS invited the English officers to dinner. During the dinner the army band played well known melodies.
After 48 hours we fareweled them to Bir-i Seb to the HQ of 1st Expeditory Forces.
We fought againts anglo-saxons under this conditions. The roots of Friendship begun after Katya.
 

Cav. Col. Şerif Güralp was a 2nd Lt. commanding 3rd Company of 8th Cav. Regt of  famous 3rd.Cav.Div. His photo is from 1940's in Cav. Col.'s uniform.
Army Serial Number:Sv.(cav.) 1326(1910)-18