4 Company Bn structure

[Scalyback]

3rd Battalion Monmouth Regiment.

 

A Abergavenny

B Ebbw Vale

C Cwm

D Sirhowy

E Abertillery  Hill Street

F Abertillery  Hill Street

G Tredeger

H Blaina

 

Reorganised January 1915.

A company formed from A and F

B company formed from B and C

C company formed from E and G

D company formed from D and H 

 

Some sort of sense there regards location but Sirhowy and Cwm are very small places so sure on the actual how many men in each company, given Abertillery could have two companys but Tredegar being a bigger town could not support two companies. Abergavenny did have an element called HQ company commanded by a LT col whilst A company was commanded by a Captain. I don't think either was a full strength company. 

[Steven Broomfield]

We'll probably never know, but I wonder if the relative strengths of the 'Old' Companies had an effect on the decision - take, forexample, the 4th camerons: the Inverness companies might be expected to be better-manned, being the largest town by a long distance, whereas Broadford looks a little, shall we say, bijou on the map.

 

Sheer conjecture though.

[Bordercollie]

I don't think relative strengths was an issue by the time TF battalions reorganised. This from "Manu Forti A History of the Herefordshire Regiment 1860-1967"

 

“When mobilized the battalion was somewhat short of its establishment and Capt F T Carver, who had been appointed adjutant of the depot prior to the formation of the 2^nd Battalion, was instructed to try and get some recruits. After seeing the battalion off [to Pembroke] Carver returned to the drill hall at about 9.00pm. Not a soul was about other than John Bethall, the caretaker. Half an hour later there was a loud hammering on the door and, on going to investigate, Carver found more splendid youngsters outside, all clamouring to enlist……. By midnight all had been enlisted. Thus it went on from day to day, so that in the next fortnight four hundred men had been enlisted and fitted out for 1^st Battalion the Herefordshire Regiment.”   

[Steven Broomfield]

True, but strengths of trained men (or 'effectives') might have been a different matter. Many of those lads may have been passed on to the Reserve Battalion (Second Line). 

 

However, I can shoot myself down again because the 4th Seaforth didn't reorganise until already in France where they would hardly have been if under-strength, even if a lot of the men had been recruited rather hurriedly in London while the battalion was at Beford.

 

Ignore me. I'm rambling.

[Scalyback]

Going from Volunteer's to the TF in 1908 also showed some random renumbering. As you say Steven we may never know, I fancy it is down to what I call reserve whims.

[rolt968]

10 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

For the sake of completeness, I have just tested my theory that geography might play a part: not that it was simpler to oversee sub-units in closer proximity to one another (pointless once a battalion had been concentrated), but rather that having blokes from closer neighbourhoods might make sense ... and two units I looked at on that basis blow me right out of the water!

 

The 4th (Morayshire) Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders amalgamated as below (after arrival in France in November 1914):

 

A (Tain) & B (Dingwall) - A Coy

C (Munlochy) & G (Alness) - B

D (Gairloch) & E (Ullapool) - c

H (Invergordon) & H (Maryburgh) - D

 

The 4th Battalion, Cameron Highlanders went thus (while at Bedford):

 

A (Inverness) & D (Broadford) - A

B (Nairn) & C (Inverness) - B

E (Fort William) & F (Kingussie) - C

G (Beauly) & H (Portree) - D

 

Now, a quick look at a map of Scotland dispels my theory goes pear-shaped: f nothing else, old D and H Companies of the 4th Cameron both come from Skye while old G Company was 5 miles from Inverness. At the same time, old H Company of the 4th seaforth was located about a mile from B whereas A and H were five miles apart.

 

Ho hum.

 

Incientally, has anyone asked the same questions regarding the disbandment of the surplus Squadrom when the yeomanry went from peacetime 4 squadron to the wartime 3?s

I not quite sure where this leads us:

 

1 Fife and Forfar Yeomanry: D Squadron (based in Forfar) was "dropped out" the men being shared out between the other squadrons. This seems to have taken place during the move to "War Establishment" at Blairgowrie. "The Regiment was fortunate in having about a week at Squadron Mobilization Centres before uniting at Blairgowrie…. The most rapid bit of work must have been that of D Squadron whose men were distributed amongst the other squadrons fully equipped, in about three days. This squadron was also called upon to provide the various details, such as mounted police, who were required on mobilization to report to the Highland Territorial Infantry Division...." (Ogilvie. The Fife and Forfar Yeomanry.)  [You feel that D Squadron had drawn the short straw!]

 

HQ was at Kirkcaldy, A Squadron at Cupar, B at Dunfermline, C at Dundee and D at Forfar.

 

RM

[Bordercollie]

In the Shropshire Yeomanry it was D Squadron too upon which the axe fell. Soon after mobilisation the OC of D Squadron, Major Corbet, was obliged to retire owing to ill health and handed over to Lieutenant Wolryche Whitmore. Therefore it is Possible that D Squadron's selection for disbandment was as much due to the seniority of their new OC as to their position in the alphabet.

[Steven Broomfield]

This I must share. On 24th November, 1914, the London Rifle Brigade (at that time in France) reorganised as below:

 

A & D Companies became No. 1 Coy

 

E & O - No. 2

 

G & P - No. 3

 

H & Q - No. 4

 

I have absolutely no idea where the Dickens their 8-Company lettering system came fro. All I can say is that they were posh boys and probably did what they wanted. The numerical system was utilised to avoid confusion with the old lettering (which makes sense), but was changed back to lettering after 2nd Ypres.

 

It seems, as we go on, that all we are finding as a theme here is that the British Army, in all its glory, did what it wanted. There may have been rhyme and reason; there may not. But it seems to work .. probably despite, not because!

[Skipman]

Just had a look at their diary, I think this is the one Steven mentions? (1/5th (City of London) Battalion (London Rifle Brigade), 11th Brigade 4th Division.) and it has this on the 20th Nov 1914

 

Mike

[Bordercollie]

A yeomanry regiment that disbanded a squadron other than their D squadron was the Berkshire Yeomanry. Pre-war there was A Squadron (Windsor), B Squadron (Reading), C Squadron (Newbury) and D Squadron (Wantage). The squadron disbanded on conversion to the three squadron organisation was C Squadron. I wondered whether D Squadron was saved because of the influence of Lord Wantage (sometime Lord Lieutenant of Berkshire and holder of the Victoria Cross) but he died in 1901 and so there must be some other explanation.

[Nepper]

Regular units in India, presumably they didn't receive drafts during the war and would probably provide men to the other regular battalion?  Would they have waited until strengths were down to 4 company size before re-organising?

[Steven Broomfield]

The Derbuyshire Yeomanry started the war with four Squadrons: A at Chesterfield, B at Bakewell and C & D, plus RHQ, at Derby. They disbanded C on the basis, as the regimental history states, that C was curently the junior squadron so the men were absorbed into the other squadrons.

[Steven Broomfield]

Three more Yeomanry regiments:

 

South Notts Hussars disbanded A Squadron

 

Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars disbanded B Squadron

 

Bedfordshire Yeomanry disbanded B Squadron.

 

Interestingly, in the Yeomanry it was 'disbanded' not 'amalgamated', and the 'missing' squadron letters were not reallocated, so (for example), the Bedfordshire Yeomanry seems to have managed the war minus B Squadron. As the War Establishment for a Yeomanry regiment was 3 Squadrons, as opposed to the peacetime three, presumably this must have been pre-planned. It certainly happened pretty well on Mobilisation rather than several months after as with the infantry.

[Ron Clifton]

Presumably the Yeomanry maintained the four-squadron establishment in order to maximise their recruiting potential and make the best use of the peacetime facilities, which would often have been fairly new or re-conditioned since the TF was set up in 1908.

 

Ron

[Steven Broomfield]

Absolutely: the Hampshire Carabiniers, for example, had a Squadron at each of the 4 main population cenres in the county - Winchester, Southampton, Portsmouth and Bournemouth. That seems to have been replicated by pretty well every Yeomanry outfit with the exception (understandably perhaps) of the London units.

[Bordercollie]

In fact the Hampshire Carabiniers had widely dispersed squadrons. A Squadron with headquarters in Portsmouth also had drill halls in Freshwater, Newport, Ryde, Petersfield and Titchfield. B Squadron in Winchester had drill halls in Alton, Aldershot, Basingstoke and Bishop's Waltham. C Squadron in Southampton had drill halls in Eastleigh, Andover and Romsey. D Squadron in Bournemouth had drill halls in Stockton, Highcliffe, Burley and Beaulieu. Typically yeomanry recruits would come from farming communities across the county for whom a weekly visit to one of the county's main population centres would be as likely as a weekly visit to the moon. It would have been just as easy to organise these widely distributed drill halls into three squadrons as it was to organise them into four squadrons. The Territorial Force was created as a separate army for home defence and so it didn't matter that it had a different structure for its cavalry regiments than the Regular Army. It appears to me that the need to reorganise on to a three squadron organisation became necessary when it became apparent that there would be a need to integrate the Territorial Force more closely with the Regular Army for service overseas.  

[Ron Clifton]

One passing comment: the arrangements for conveying troops by train, as summarised in the Field Service Pocket Book, include a clear indication that the yeomanry regiments were to be conveyed as a "quarter regiment" [sic] per train. This presumably assumes journeys within the UK.

 

Ron

[Steven Broomfield]

3 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

In fact the Hampshire Carabiniers had widely dispersed squadrons. A Squadron with headquarters in Portsmouth also had drill halls in Freshwater, Newport, Ryde, Petersfield and Titchfield. B Squadron in Winchester had drill halls in Alton, Aldershot, Basingstoke and Bishop's Waltham. C Squadron in Southampton had drill halls in Eastleigh, Andover and Romsey. D Squadron in Bournemouth had drill halls in Stockton, Highcliffe, Burley and Beaulieu. Typically yeomanry recruits would come from farming communities across the county for whom a weekly visit to one of the county's main population centres would be as likely as a weekly visit to the moon. 

 

I couldn't be arsed to type all that lot out!

 

The infantry, too, was widely spread For example, the 8th (Isle of White Rifles) Battalion of the Hampshire Regiment had 19 drill stations across the island in addition to 6 different Company locations.

[Bordercollie]

3 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

One passing comment: the arrangements for conveying troops by train, as summarised in the Field Service Pocket Book, include a clear indication that the yeomanry regiments were to be conveyed as a "quarter regiment" [sic] per train. This presumably assumes journeys within the UK.

 

Ron

I assume that is the 1914 edition of the Field Service Pocket Book which would have been based upon the pre-war plans for the Territorial Force to be deployed (with yeomanry regiments of four squadrons) in accordance with the July 1914 Home Defence Scheme. The 1916 edition gives train loading tables for a Territorial Force Mounted Brigade based on the three squadron organisation with one train for the Brigade HQ and one Regimental HQ and its machine gun section, another train for two Regimental HQs and their machine gun sections and nine trains one for each sabre squadron.

[Muerrisch]

Every edition of the FSPB stresses that it is not the authority .........

[Bordercollie]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Every edition of the FSPB stresses that it is not the authority .........

Almost true but as it was intended as a handy reference guide for an officer on active service to be of any use it needed to be based upon the circumstances the officer would then be likely to encounter.

[Ron Clifton]

12 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

I assume that is the 1914 edition of the Field Service Pocket Book which would have been based upon the pre-war plans for the Territorial Force to be deployed (with yeomanry regiments of four squadrons) in accordance with the July 1914 Home Defence Scheme. The 1916 edition gives train loading tables for a Territorial Force Mounted Brigade based on the three squadron organisation with one train for the Brigade HQ and one Regimental HQ and its machine gun section, another train for two Regimental HQs and their machine gun sections and nine trains one for each sabre squadron.

Yes, I was quoting from the 1914 edition. As I said, I presumed that this referred to journeys within the UK.

 

It is true that each edition of the FSPB stressed that it should not be quoted as an authority in promotion exams, since anything in it was derived from other sources which were the actual authorities - in this case the Railway Manual (War). Generally speaking, the information in FSPB was accurate and reliable, but not definitive of itself.

 

Ron

[Muerrisch]

3 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

Almost true but as it was intended as a handy reference guide for an officer on active service to be of any use it needed to be based upon the circumstances the officer would then be likely to encounter.

 

I am curious. In what way is my assertion not completely true please?

Inter alia, the preface reads: " ...... should not be quoted as an authority ......." 1914 reprinted 1916

 

 

[Bordercollie]

It is the difference between the definite article and the indefinite article and, of course, the quotation goes on to specify the circumstances in which the handbook is not to be quoted as an authority.

[Muerrisch]

Holy Mackerel! And I thought that I had missed something of significance.

 

I am led to wonder under which circumstances the handbook was to be used as an authority.

 

Angels and pinheads, and we digress.