Terence Munson Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 What can anyone tell about this uniform? Photo taken in a Grimsby studio during the Great War. Putting a name to the face a long shot - possibly Whiten. Local enquiry any info would be appreciated. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 I think that's Royal Naval Reserve sleeve braid and I think an officer's cap badge. It looks very much as if there's a distinction cloth (coloured strip) between the twists. If green, engineer, if red, surgeon. Can't remember what colour the schoolmaster distinction cloth was. I can't see any GW period officer Whitens in TNA's Discovery catalogue, and the men all come from the south, particularly Essex. I may have missed something, of course. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Whiten+adm&_p=1900&Refine+dates=Refine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 10 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2019 (edited) Thanks Jane' I think I've just I.D. him as Issac Whiten (63) Master of the Gt. Central Railways "Stockport" & "Dewsbury" in Admiralty service 1915 Terry PS meant to ask what do the three chevrons on the right sleeve signify? Edited 10 January , 2019 by Terence Munson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 (edited) He is an RNR Lieutenant. There is a "branch" distinction cloth between the rank lace stripes. As Jane says red for surgeons, purple for engineers, white for paymasters (certainly not that), I think pale blue for instructors/schoolmasters (I think - it was in WW2). Also he has an "executive curl". At first no branch officers wore one. I think that engineer officers were given the curl ahead of the other branches. (Someone will know when.) RM Edit: Also three service chevrons. Also Shipwrights wore grey branch cloth. Edited 10 January , 2019 by rolt968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 10 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2019 Thanks RM is the "executive curl" the circle of braid above the rings on the sleeves? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 (edited) I think he is actually a Lieutenant Commander RNR, the half lace was straight and in this case was not a branch colour distinction, if he is indeed the Master of the Dewsbury or Stockport then he would be executive branch and the colour distinction dark blue and undiscernible from the uniform colour. As far as I am aware the Dewsbury remained in civilian service to the Netherlands for the entire war the Stockport also, but she was used as a military supply ship on occasions. Tony Edited 10 January , 2019 by MerchantOldSalt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 I can find no naval officer of any branch of the service with that name. Possible mis-ident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 10 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2019 Hi see these links: http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/143607http://1915crewlists.rmg.co.uk/document/206079 Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 Terry Isaac Whiten was certainly a Merchant Service Master Mariner, copies of his certificates of competency are available on Ancestry and he served with the Great Central Railway sailing from Grimsby for many years, but as Horatio2 points out there is no record of him serving in the RNR in the Navy Lists, and there would be, so this photo is unlikely to be him Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 10 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2019 Ok Thanks. Note in the written docs for "Stockport" the notation "Admiralty Transport" and the initial J Should be I. Just to confirm is the consensus that the uniform is RNR? Cheers Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 Absolutely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 1 hour ago, rolt968 said: I think that engineer officers were given the curl ahead of the other branches. Correct, but I can't remember when. Medics in November 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 10 January , 2019 Share Posted 10 January , 2019 (edited) Surely the single half stripe of a Lieutenant Commander RNR, which was indeed straight would come out the same colour in a photo as the other lace. The branch colour of RNR officers did not fill the space between the rank lace as it did in both the RN and RNVR. It was a single stripe (of velvet?). All branches were allocated the executive curl about the end of WW1. I think that the engineering branch was allowed to wear the executive curl before that. (The executive curl is the star/circle of lace above the stripes.) Unfortunately since he is wearing three service chevrons this photo, can't have been taken earlier than the spring/summer of 1918. RM Edited 10 January , 2019 by rolt968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerchantOldSalt Posted 11 January , 2019 Share Posted 11 January , 2019 RM I suppose I was thinking that if the photo was indeed of a Master in the Merchant Service as well as holding a commission in the RNR then he would not have any insertions, this has proved not to be the case. However, I had many sets of gold lace which tarnished over the years in remarkable fashion individual "stripes" changing colours due to wear and tear, salt water and general dirt, the colour alteration depended very much on how well made was the gold lace, that is gold wire or the cheaper plated wire, some of the braid or lace dulling to almost black over many years. Even more recently many Lieutenants RNR of eight years seniority, in order to save money, had the tailor split their two rings and inserted the half ring in between, the half ring being of different make and age coloured completely differently to the broader rings, initially it might be brighter but could darken faster than the older rings at times, I had some like that. I don't suppose it was any different during WW1. Having said all that, you could well be correct RM! But, if it is a coloured insertion then he can only be a Paymaster or an Engineer, as far as I can find, there were no Surgeons or any other branches in the RNR, at least none mentioned as serving by Bowen or appearing in the Navy Lists that I can find up to now. Whilst it was suggested that Doctors serving on passenger ships in the Merchant Service should be able to become reservists, the Admiralty, according to Bowen, declined the idea saying they would be called up if needed. If all that is the case, and I will gladly be corrected, then the gentleman in the photo is either a very "dirty of sleeve" paymaster or a well bleached engineer, though colours on B&W photos are always difficult. I think I might go for the engineer, as the purple insertion has always varied greatly in shade. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 11 January , 2019 Share Posted 11 January , 2019 10 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said: he can only be a Paymaster or an Engineer, as far as I can find, there were no Surgeons or any other branches in the RNR I agree. The Admiralty Medal Rolls have entries for only two specialist branches in the RNR - Engineer and Paymaster. There are no Surgeons - they were commissioned into the RNVR for wartime service.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeCeeCee Posted 11 January , 2019 Share Posted 11 January , 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, rolt968 said: He is an RNR Lieutenant. There is a "branch" distinction cloth between the rank lace stripes. As Jane says red for surgeons, purple for engineers, white for paymasters (certainly not that), I think pale blue for instructors/schoolmasters (I think - it was in WW2). Also he has an "executive curl". At first no branch officers wore one. I think that engineer officers were given the curl ahead of the other branches. (Someone will know when.) RM Edit: Also three service chevrons. Also Shipwrights wore grey branch cloth. There's a table of Officers distinction cloth colours, used at various times, half way down the page at this link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_officer_rank_insignia Edited 11 January , 2019 by TeeCeeCee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 11 January , 2019 Share Posted 11 January , 2019 60 results in Discovery for Engineers in the RNR whose names begin "Whit*" (can't exclude those with "Whit*" as a middle name, sorry) http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q=engineer+"royal+naval+reserve"+whit* sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 11 January , 2019 Share Posted 11 January , 2019 4 hours ago, TeeCeeCee said: There's a table of Officers distinction cloth colours, used at various times, half way down the page at this link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_officer_rank_insignia Very useful. It also says that engineer officers were given the executive curl in 1915, ahead of the other branches (1918). RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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