trajan Posted 7 January , 2019 Share Posted 7 January , 2019 Hi everyone, Just arrived - my Xmas present from my wife and family, a book I had read good reviews about on other forums, the only problem being that it is in Russian! This is V.V.Vorontsov and D.V.Vorontsov, ШТЫКИ ГЕРМАНИИ. Pfm 71/98, S98/02, S98/05 (Moscow 2015)... It is to all itents and purposes and update of Carter's vol1, and is indeed dedicated to him, but has lots more information and colour photographs, detailed drawings also, all to drool over - if German Imperial bayonets are your thing! Have a look at: http://www.sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=153470 No, I haven't checked the text yet(!) but it looks to be a superbly illustrated version of the seminal work. Oh, and I have ordering details if needed... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2019 Well, a better description would be German bayonet pornography... Lavishly illustrated - enough to make it a coffee table book as well! - and a quick look through suggests they have photographs of all the known maker marks, plus updated versions of Carter's 'production' charts. I have my own partial list of these (thanks to GBF and GWF) and a quick check shows nothing missing there - except the WAFFENFABRIK transitional 98/05 a.A. which I recently learnt of. Great section at the back on the making of the 98/05 complete with metallurgical analysis - for which a 98/05 was sacrificied. They quote the Haenel specifications as is to be expected and what they have for others seems to match my own XRF analyses of WFM ones. They basically follow Carter in listing the makes and listing the units known to have used the Pfm 71/98 and 98/02. Must go back to check if they did this for 98/05's also but think not so perhaps I will 'publish' a supplement on that here. BTW, I gather from Christian Mery that a 2nd much-revised version of his German Bayonets is in the works, plus a 2nd of his Erstaz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 7 January , 2019 Share Posted 7 January , 2019 Julian, I thought you said you were very busy with work in the new year?? Anyway, thanks very much for the above. The photographs do look excellent but I have no chance of translating this book and, given I have a full set of Carter, I don't think I will be tempted. Good luck with the translating. Michael. P.S. I acquired fairly recently an S98/05 aA S by Erfurt W 06. For your records the marking on it is 8.P.4.39. The nice thing about it is that the false edge has never been sharpened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2019 55 minutes ago, Michael Haselgrove said: Julian, I thought you said you were very busy with work in the new year?? Anyway, thanks very much for the above. The photographs do look excellent but I have no chance of translating this book and, given I have a full set of Carter, I don't think I will be tempted. Good luck with the translating. Michael. P.S. I acquired fairly recently an S98/05 aA S by Erfurt W 06. For your records the marking on it is 8.P.4.39. The nice thing about it is that the false edge has never been sharpened. Dear Michael, I am indeed up to the eyeballs with this and that and bayonets have to take a back seat most of the time... Only eight more years before the younger one leaves school and then - inshallah! - I can retire and concentrate properly on things of greater interest! I have not attempted translating any part of 'bayonet porn'(!) but a first look suggests that most of the text is Carter redux, as it were. The up-dated maker charts are certainly valuable for me in my own resarch and the photographs are simply superb, including those of the maker's marks, the technical drawings of the bayonets themselves also. The basic data came from the collections of the late Roy Williams, the Vorontsovs, and about six other named collectors, mainly 'Russian' (well, some might be Ukraianian or BelloRussian, etc.!) Being an artefacts and details man what is especially interesting for me are their photographs of makers marks, not the least because I have an almost totally erased makers mark on a 98/05 n.A ms transitional that I have been trying to identify for ages - the cypher and year are also gone. But the Vorontsov's include the fraktur marks also although these are - sadly - not listed separately. I.e., if you know the maker you can find the different frakturs easily... I was surprised, by the way, even with my limited knowledge, to see that some 98/05 had different frakturs within the years of production at their makers, and pommel marks with a pair of different frakturs also. We live, we learn. Anyway, hopefully I will identify my mysterious one from its pommel fraktur when I get a chance to suddy the book properly! That 8.P.4.39. sounds like a very nice find! I really must get back to collating unit marks at some point - it has been a year since I last up-dated it.... It is proving useful. Takes Carter a stage further from his own remarkable analyses of who got when what! Not certain, though, if I could get a sabbatical for this - but might try! Best wishes, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 7 January , 2019 Share Posted 7 January , 2019 Hey Michael and Julian, the only imperial German bayonets I knew of with a false edge are the Bavarian Werder PFM and some of those converted to S71 PFM and 88 standard kept the false edge, the false edge to me was simply a "guide" so the soldier did not rake the teeth or slowly cut into the brass throat. You say 98/05 "False Edge". I never saw or heard of a butcher with that? Was that just one maker did that or what is the story? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2019 10 hours ago, Steve1871 said: Hey Michael and Julian, the only imperial German bayonets I knew of with a false edge are the Bavarian Werder PFM and some of those converted to S71 PFM and 88 standard kept the false edge, the false edge to me was simply a "guide" so the soldier did not rake the teeth or slowly cut into the brass throat. You say 98/05 "False Edge". I never saw or heard of a butcher with that? Was that just one maker did that or what is the story? Thanks Here you go Steve, Carter vol 1, 32, records an order issued on 16th September 1915 by the Kriegsministerium in Berlin that all bayonets used by "Infanterie, Jäger und Schützen" were to have their false edges sharpened for 4cm. The actual order - if anyone is interested - is "KM Order 587/9.15.A2 " and it refers back to a regulation published in the DVE Nr.298a (don't have the date for that - yet!), and the relevant part reads: " ...die Seitengewehre der Infanterie, Jäger und Schützen nicht nur an der Schneide, sondern auch an der Rückseite ser Spitze auf ungefähr 4 cm länge zu schleifen sind, wird auch auf die Seitengewehre 98/05 bei all Truppen ausgedehnt". Here below on the right in each photograph a sharpened false edge and on the left an unsharpened one. These unsharpened ones are NOT common! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2019 I have no connection - obviously! - to the authors or publishers of the book but I thought I'd add here before I loose it the link to where it can be bought from - https://www.zemlyanka-v.com/shop/germany/literatura-po-oruzhiju/novinka-kniga-shtyki-germanii-pfm7198-s9802-s9805/ It is more expensive from the USA... Twice as much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 9 January , 2019 Share Posted 9 January , 2019 Thanks Julian, I kept thinking only of the bottom edge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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