1st Battalion King's Liverpool - B Company?

[OverinAlberta]

I'm busy researching my Great Grandfather, Private David Williams 10315, born 1893 in Liverpool to Hugh and Susan.

 

I am trying to work out his movements in France, and in so doing uncovered two field hospital records - one in 1915 when he was sent back to England with a GSW to the face, and one in 1916 from the 51st Filed Ambulance admission and discharge book, that states he suffered from another gunshot wound, this time to the leg, around 8th August.

 

This second record is of interest as it seems to specify under "Squadron, Batter or Company" that he was in "B", but I can't find any clear reference to a B Company in the King's Liverpool. Can anyone point me in the right direction to research this group's movements? Family legend has held that he was gassed and shot at both Ypres and the Somme, and while the dates of his hospitalisations lend credence to the mythology, I'd love to be able to take a look at some war diaries if only I could figure out what I was looking for.

 

I plan to send my Aunt who still lives in Liverpool to go see what they have at the museum, but anything I can access online would be a massive bonus.

 

Thanks in advance for any advice,

 

Gemma

Edited 28 December , 2018 by OverinAlberta

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Gemma,

Welcome to the forum, how do you know he was in the 1st battalion kings Liverpool?

The Medal roll available on Ancestry will confirm the battalion of the East Lancs Regiment and possibly Kings Liverpool, there should be Silver War Badge records as well. Silver war badges were awarded to men whose injuries were serious enough for them to be sent home. Once you have established which battalions he was in you can then get copies of the battalion war diaries, this will tell you where they were and what they did. Each infantry battalion was divided into 4 companies, A, B, C and D, the war diaries will usually tell you what each company was doing at any given time.

 

Good luck

[Don Regiano]

2 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

Hi Gemma,

how do you know he was in the 1st battalion kings Liverpool?

 

 

Well, it says so on the hospital lists included by the OP .......

[Gardenerbill]

1 minute ago, Don Regiano said:

 

Well, it says so on the hospital lists included by the OP .......

Ok Don, I couldn't read it.

[Don Regiano]

5 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

Ok Don, I couldn't read it.

 

I couldn't either at first.  Thought maybe you had some other info that maybe raised some doubt.

 

 Just beginning to read the war diary on Ancestry.  The battalion moved up to Montauban Alley towards the end of July 1916.  On 29th, B (C and D) were near Bernafay Wood and were very heavily shelled.  31st relieved A co in Trones Wood.  Diary suggests later relieved 13 Essex at Delville Wood and in support of a and C in front line.  (Haven't checked trench maps).

 

2/3 August relieved - to Mine Alley near Carnoy. 7th moved up to jumping off point (B Co. E of Trones Wood)  8 Aug Z-hour was 4.20am.  B Co first objective was Brompton Road .

 

There is an extensive report on the attack and the operational orders are contained in the war diary.  August 1916 begins here:

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43849_1359_0-00248?pid=670180&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dfhb204%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3Dukwardiarieswwi%26cp%3D0%26gskw%3D1359/3%26qh%3D78WyC949LU8%2B0I4rTcG60Q%3D%3D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26redir%3Dfalse%26uidh%3Duc3%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D4%26h%3D670180%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D5&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=fhb204&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=43849_1359_0-00247

 

IIRC there is also a lot contained in the Battleground Europe series book on Guillemont.  Can't check as my copy is on the Somme (about 2 miles south of Guillemont)!

 

Regards

 

Reg

[OverinAlberta]

Thanks so much for this, gents. I don't have ancestry at home, only FindMyPast, so I think a trip to the library is in order.

 

Thanks for the explanation about how the companies were set up. My father had always assumed he was Pals so we were surprised to find he was in the 1st.

 

I will check the silver war badges, too; he was discharged back to England via hospital ship according to the 1915 hospital record, so I'll make the assumption he has one.

 

What would be the reason for his transfer into the East Lancs? It doesn't look like his service records have survived, but would there be any other resources that might hold some clues?

 

Thanks so much!

 

[clk]

Hi Gemma,

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see a surviving service file for David - most were lost as the result of a fire in WW2. His Medal Index Card that you posted indicates that he first arrived overseas on 16th March 1915, and his medal roll record (on Ancestry) indicates that his overseas service was with 1/KLR, and later with the 6/ELR. The 1/KLR arrived in France in 1914, so he would have served with them as a reinforcement. Prior to David joining them, he might have served, and had initial training in the UK, with one of their home service battalions, or he might have been transferred to the Liverpool Regiment after he had arrived in theatre, at an Infantry Base Depot, prior to being deployed in the field. Having arrived at the IBD it is likely that he spent some time there, receiving additional training, before being sent to the front. It was quite common (and might be the case or David) that when a man was hospitalised with a significant wounding, after recovering he was often returned to service with a different unit/regiment, depending on where the need lay. Quite often, but not always, you can make some inferences about service, from near number men from the same regiment that do have surviving papers - for example, as you have access to FMP, it might be worth plodding through these hits to see if you can establish when his East Lancs number dates from.

 

You don't generally need to have Ancestry to download Bn/Bde/Div war diaries - they are much easier to download from the National Archives -  search page.

 

Regards

Chris

[OverinAlberta]

Thanks, Chris, you have been a massive help. I'll follow your advice and see what I can find.

 

Gemma

 

EDIT: I've just located my G-Grandfather joining the regiment as reinforcements on April 21st, 1915.  He was shot in the face and sent back to England less than three weeks later, although I'm not yet sure what day he was injured.

 

Thank you all for your help. I plan to spend this evening going through the rest of the war diaries to see if I can work out when he returned, as he was injured in combat again on August 8th. 

Edited 29 December , 2018 by OverinAlberta
adding information

[Don Regiano]

Gemma.

 

If you check out this thread, there is a trench map and some current-day photos of the area where 1KLR would have attacked in August.

 

If you look at the extract in post #2, Brompton Road (their first objective) is the track going SW/NE between Quarry and Sta.

[OverinAlberta]

Thanks, Don.

 

It's vaguely frustrating to be so far away. My parents lived in the Pas Du Calais for a decade and I've even been to Guillemont both as a teen and in my 20s, we just had no idea that my dad's great-grandfather had served there at the time.

 

Out of interest, is anyone collecting or indexing the names that appear in the War diaries? I'm happy to put together a spreadsheet with what I've got from these (the King's 1915 diaries have reinforcement lists at the end of each month included so the privates named, although they aren't in 1916) but I don't know where the best place to put them would be.

[OverinAlberta]

On 28/12/2018 at 15:33, clk said:

Hi Gemma,

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see a surviving service file for David - most were lost as the result of a fire in WW2. His Medal Index Card that you posted indicates that he first arrived overseas on 16th March 1915, and his medal roll record (on Ancestry) indicates that his overseas service was with 1/KLR, and later with the 6/ELR. The 1/KLR arrived in France in 1914, so he would have served with them as a reinforcement. Prior to David joining them, he might have served, and had initial training in the UK, with one of their home service battalions, or he might have been transferred to the Liverpool Regiment after he had arrived in theatre, at an Infantry Base Depot, prior to being deployed in the field. Having arrived at the IBD it is likely that he spent some time there, receiving additional training, before being sent to the front. It was quite common (and might be the case or David) that when a man was hospitalised with a significant wounding, after recovering he was often returned to service with a different unit/regiment, depending on where the need lay. Quite often, but not always, you can make some inferences about service, from near number men from the same regiment that do have surviving papers - for example, as you have access to FMP, it might be worth plodding through these hits to see if you can establish when his East Lancs number dates from.

 

You don't generally need to have Ancestry to download Bn/Bde/Div war diaries - they are much easier to download from the National Archives -  search page.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Hi Chris, I did as you suggested, and it appears that a large number of men were transferred from the King's Liverpool to the East Lancs 6th at around the same time (April 17) - and sent off to Mesopotamia. Naturally, I have yet another research hole to dive into, and I couldn't be happier.

 

Thank you!

 

Gemma

[LiverpoolLou]

Hi Gemma,

My great uncle served with B Company, 1st King's Liverpool as well. He fought at Guillemont, 8/8/16. The battalion attacked from New Trench. 

 

Regards.

[LiverpoolLou]

Please see the map for the attacks on Guillemont, 8/8/16.