Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Sign in to follow this  
laughton

B88 Aeroplane Cemetery: Serjeant King's Own

Recommended Posts

laughton

I assume this is King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) as noted on the LLT. There are others from the 2nd Battalion in the same cemetery and at the same location 28.C.29.d.7.2 which would be Frezenberg Ridge, east of Potijze on the Ypres-Zonnebeke Road (war diary page 36 of 115).

 

The Serjeant in 1.B.57 has Anglo-Boer War Ribbons and I thought someone would have picked up on this one already but a search of the GWF did not find such a case.

 

This site (https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-units/652-royal-lancaster-regiment) allows you to search to see who served in the SA War from that regiment.

 

If I am correct, the only candidate is Alfred Clarkson (MIC), as the others known to have served in the Anglo-Boer War with the same surname and initial were too young. I don't know Alfred Clarkson's age ( I do now)!

 

His service record is dated 28th day of June 1897, at which time he was 19 years 3 months of age, born about 1878 (Civil Registration Burnley V 8e 213).

 

I checked his name on the GWF and don't see he has been mentioned previously.

 

surname forename 1916 age death KORLR # S.A. War - initial 1902 age
BLADES JAMES   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '5284' no  
BUCK GEORGE FREDERICK   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '8761' no  
CLARKSON ALFRED   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '5419' yes 2nd Bn 24
GIBSON JAMES 25 08-05-15 2nd Bn. '9681' yes 2nd Bn 11
HOLMES ROBERT   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '9155' no - deceased  
KIRKBY JAMES SARGINSON 25 03-05-15 1st/5th Bn. '376' no  
NICHOL ALBERT JAMES 28 08-05-15 2nd Bn. '6657' no 14
POTTER MARTEN WILLIAM   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '9426' no  
SMITH JOHN 25 02-05-15 1st Bn. '1434' yes 2nd Bn 11
WALLBANK RICHARD   04-05-15 1st/5th Bn. '93' no  

 

doc2150374.JPG

Edited by laughton
now know his age

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cheshire22

Richard 

 

how about 6196 Sgt John Walker of the 1st.  He was killed in action on 11th November 1914 an his name appears on the Ploegsteert memorial 

 

his details states that he served in the South African Campaign 

Edited by Cheshire22

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

Good of you to check Jamie! So I am not the only one ducking away for a few moments of peace and quiet on Christmas morning ! :w00t: The 12th Brigade was at Le Bizet in sector 36.C.13 just north of Armentieres at that time (war diary page 230 of 676). The 1st Bn was a wee bit to the northeast at Le Touquet (war diary page 52 of 453). That is why he is on the Ploegsteert Memorial and not Menin Gate.

 

There is of course more work to do, as you have started, as my first post assumed that he was with his pals of the 2nd Battalion at the time.

 

Any other candidates from anyone, bring them forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

The turkey is stuffed and in the oven - break time. Of course we are 5 hours behind, so the pals in the UK are much closer to the feast, although if I recall my relatives ate the feast earlier in the day in the UK.

 

I did not notice when posting this that May 8th 1915 was the same day my grandfather was wounded at Frezenberg Ridge, leaving the war to return later as an Officer with the Royal Irish Rifles. At that time he was with the Canadian PPCLI in the British 27th Division, 80th Brigade.

 

Later in May there were four (4) more Serjeants lost and unknown (CWGC Link), but when they returned at that time they were in the trenches in front of Sanctuary Wood (war diary page 41 of 115).

 

I will need to check that the regiment was not in the same area at another time during the war, more work to be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

This is the list of all the Serjeants of the Regiment that are missing in Belgium. Some can be immediately eliminated because they are too young to have served in the Anglo-Boer War (assumed to be a minimum age of 18 in 1902 and allow 2 years for overestimating their age - so 16 years old minimum).

 

From that list, I will then go back and see if anyone with that last name and initial served in either of the South African Wars (to follow).

 

surname initials age honours death secondary unit # memorial
ALBERT W 29   14-10-14   1st Bn. '8820' PLOEGSTEERT
WALKER J 34   11-11-14   1st Bn. '6196' PLOEGSTEERT
HOUGHTON H 32   04-03-15   1st Bn. '6704' PLOEGSTEERT
HUGHES J     22-03-15   1st Bn. '8799' PLOEGSTEERT
CROSS J M 34 D C M 20-09-17   1st/4th Bn. '202738' TYNE COT
TEDCASTLE W 34   20-09-17   1st/5th Bn. '240144' TYNE COT
THOMPSON R     20-09-17   1st/4th Bn. '201703' TYNE COT
BENBOW W G 27   25-09-17   "D" Coy. 8th Bn. '15960' TYNE COT
DILLON W     26-09-17   8th Bn. '9687' TYNE COT
GARNER P 23   26-09-17   8th Bn. '15506' TYNE COT
BOOTH J 30 D C M, M M 28-09-17   7th Bn. '12141' TYNE COT
KENNY J     09-10-17   1st Bn. '27030' TYNE COT
McCULLOCK W     09-10-17   1st Bn. '32812' TYNE COT
BROCKBANK R E 33 M M 12-10-17   1st Bn. '8504' TYNE COT
WARD H 38   12-10-17 Middlesex Regiment 1st Bn. '235421' TYNE COT
FISHWICK A 20   26-10-17   "B" Coy. 2nd/5th Bn. '241008' TYNE COT
HARPER R W     26-10-17   2nd/5th Bn. '9196' TYNE COT
COOKE A T     14-02-15   2nd Bn. '8646' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
JONES A 42   14-02-15   2nd Bn. '4507' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
KEELY J W 25   17-02-15   2nd Bn. '8797' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
JONES A     20-02-15   2nd Bn. '5943' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
THOMPSON J 27   28-02-15   2nd Bn. '8603' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
TAYLOR E 31   14-04-15   2nd Bn. '221' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
BLORE A 28   22-04-15   2nd Bn. '9834' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
GARDNER J H 37   27-04-15   1st/5th Bn. '454' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
SMITH J 25   02-05-15   1st Bn. '1434' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
KIRKBY J S 25   03-05-15   1st/5th Bn. '376' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
WALLBANK R     04-05-15   1st/5th Bn. '93' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
BLADES J     08-05-15   2nd Bn. '5284' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
BUCK G F     08-05-15   2nd Bn. '8761' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
CLARKSON A     08-05-15   2nd Bn. '5419' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
GIBSON J 25   08-05-15   2nd Bn. '9681' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HOLMES R     08-05-15   2nd Bn. '9155' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
NICHOL A J 28   08-05-15   2nd Bn. '6657' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
POTTER M W     08-05-15   2nd Bn. '9426' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
LUMLEY P W 22   24-05-15   1st Bn. '10699' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
TOZE G C 27   24-05-15   1st Bn. '9451' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
DAWES A H     27-05-15   1st/5th Bn. '1248' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
THRELFALL R     27-05-15   1st/5th Bn. '2176' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
CLEARY J 28   02-03-16   8th Bn. '14090' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
HAITH P 22 D C M 03-04-16   8th Bn. '14458' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
SMITH C     09-03-17   1st/5th Bn. '243085' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
DAVIES T H 30   31-07-17   7th Bn. '12445' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
ROTHWELL R     31-07-17   7th Bn. '4244' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
SHIRLEY R     31-07-17   7th Bn. '30207' YPRES (MENIN GATE)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

These are possible because they are of the correct age or we don't know their age and their last name and at least one of their initials was on the list of those in the regiment that served in one or more of the South Africa Wars. There is a catch to the last part of that, as the list was specific to those that served in the South Africa Wars with that Regiment. It is possible that they served with another regiment. The intent here at this stage is to find if more than one on the existing list qualifies as a candidate, in which case we are done as the man can not be identified. If there is only one candidate, the other "age qualified men" must be checked on the "QSA and KSA medal rolls" as possible candidates having served in South Africa in another regiment.

 

The current list is now:

 

surname initials age death unit # memorial
WALKER J 34 11-11-14 1st Bn. '6196' PLOEGSTEERT
HUGHES J   22-03-15 1st Bn. '8799' PLOEGSTEERT
THOMPSON R   20-09-17 1st/4th Bn. '201703' TYNE COT
KENNY J   09-10-17 1st Bn. '27030' TYNE COT
McCULLOCK W   09-10-17 1st Bn. '32812' TYNE COT
JONES A 42 14-02-15 2nd Bn. '4507' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
JONES A   20-02-15 2nd Bn. '5943' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
CLARKSON A *37 08-05-15 2nd Bn. '5419' YPRES (MENIN GATE)
SMITH C   09-03-17 1st/5th Bn. '243085' YPRES (MENIN GATE)

 

We know from the earlier work that Clarkson is definitely on the list as he served in the Anglo-Boer war and the 2nd Battalion was in the correct place (where the remains were recovered) at the time of his death. We also know from the previous work that Serjeant Walker was eliminated as the 1st Battalion was not in the area in November 1914. The rest now must be checked against the war diaries (to follow).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

On the above list, starting with the 2nd Battalion as we already have that diary sourced:

  • CLARKSON A 08-05-15 in the correct area  (war diary page 36 of 115)
    • detailed report (war diary page 43 of 115), north of the road in support trenches, north of road between Potijze and Frezenberg 28.C.29 to C.30
    • see sketch  map of German versus British placements in the area (war diary page 49 of 115)
  • JONES A 14-02-1915 in the vicinity of Zillebeke 28.I.22 so not in the area (war diary page 7 of 115)
  • JONES A 20-02-15 at Blauwe Poort Farm 28.I.27.b.5.4 so not in the area (war diary page 11 of 115)

Going back up the list to look at the 1st Battalion:

  • WALKER J 11-11-14 already placed northeast at Le Touquet 36.C.10 (war diary page 52 of 453) northeast of Armentieres
  • HUGHES J 22-03-15 war diaries missing for February- March 1915 but still at Le Touquet on 4 April 1915 (war diary page 75 of 453)
    • confirmed in Brigade war diary of 22 March 1915 (war diary page 342 of 676) BHQ at le Bizet 36.C.13
  • KENNY J and McCULLOCK W 09-10-17, well out of the area between Langemarck and Poelcappelle at 20.U.24 (war diary map page 326 of 453)

I will save this and carry on in a moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

That leaves only the two others in the 1st/4th and 1st/5th.

  • THOMPSON R 20-09-17 1st/4th Bn KORLR 164th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division

    • northeast of Ypres near Hindu Cottage at 28.D.13.a (war diary page 307 of 707), about 3,000 yards northeast of the remains

  • SMITH C 09-03-17 1st/5th Bn. 166th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division

    • in the Railway Wood area 28.I.12.b, so only 1,200 yards south of where remains recovered (war diary page 316 of 665)

We do not know if these two men served in the South African War, only that someone with that last name and first initial served. At present we do not know their age but I can perhaps find that in the census documents.

 

These two are strong candidates but I would say that we are still left with Serjeant A Clarkson as the most probable candidate, as the only one in the precise area where the remains were recovered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

When were they born? Old enough to have served in South Africa Wars? So far I have not found the answer.

 

Serjeant Robert Thompson #201703 (MIC) 20 September 1917

  • #9001 8th Hussars (The King's Royal Irish)
  • #5035 1st/4th Lancashire Regiment
  • #201703 1st/4th King's Own (Royal Lancashire Regiment)
  • Soldier's Effects shows links to Mary Thompson

Serjeant Cecil Smith #243085 (MIC) 9 March 1917

  • #9734 King's Own (Royal Lancashire Regiment)
  • #243085 1st/5th King's Own (Royal Lancashire Regiment)
  • Soldier's Effects shows Cecil Guy Smith and links to Grace Whitehead and Hilda Field

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jay dubaya

Thompson born and enlisted in Belfast

Smith born Ipswich and enlisted Bury St Edmunds

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

Thanks, that helped eliminate Cecil Smith who was born in 1890 so too young to have served in South Africa. Attested 1908, just as he turned 18.

Name Cecil Smith
Event Type Military Service
Event Year 1908
Residence Place , Flintshire, Wales
Age 18
Military Company/Regiment King's Own (Royal Lancaster) Regiment
Military Regiment 9734
Military Battalion 1/5th Battalion
Birth Year (Estimated) 1890
Birthplace Ipswich, Suffolk, England

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
laughton

So now I have to back up and check any of the others that might have served one of the South Africa Wars but not necessarily with the "King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment)". Again, this list includes any many who had the correct last name. I have noted those that had the correct last name and all correct initials versus those with the correct last name and only the first initial. We can't assume that the earlier records always contained both initials correctly. I also went back and checked the shortened list with the full surname and forename.

 

https://www.angloboerwar.com/name-search

 

There may be some here that can be eliminated, such as COOKE and BLADES but since I don't know enough about the local versus purely UK forces in the SA Wars I left them on the list.

 

One that popped to the surface was TAYLOR, Edmund because the forname was exact and both his numbers coincidentally contained the numerals "221". He may be too young but he passed the age test that he was 18 at the latest date in the SA War or that he lied about his age by no more than 2 years.

 

In the last column I have entered the location of the battalion at the time of the man's death, marked with an "X" if they were out of the area where the remains were located. If they have not been eliminated by any name link to the SA Wars, it was assumed that he could have been a candidate.

 

Posting this now and will return to finish the location of the other battalions later. The list of men from the 2nd Battalion in May 1915 has expanded as we do not know their age and there is a possibility that they served in the SA Wars.

 

surname forename age death unit # memorial Anglo-Boer War Possible Location based on War Diary
ALBERT William 29 14-10-14 1st Bn. '8820' PLOEGSTEERT #31715 89th 9th Bn IY Meteren 27.X.15 to Bailleul 28.S.15 X
HOUGHTON Henry 32 04-03-15 1st Bn. '6704' PLOEGSTEERT multiple as H only at le Bizet 36.C.13 X
CROSS, DCM James Musgrave 34 20-09-17 1st/4th Bn. '202738' TYNE COT Cross J but not Cross J M or James Hindu Cottage 28.D.13 X
THOMPSON Robert   20-09-17 1st/4th Bn. '201703' TYNE COT prior list, multiple Robert Hindu Cottage 28.D.13 X
DILLON William   26-09-17 8th Bn. '9687' TYNE COT multiple W not as William  
BROCKBANK, MM Robert Edward 33 12-10-17 1st Bn. '8504' TYNE COT Brockbank R but not R E or Robert Langemarck 20.U.23 Poelcappelle 20.V.20 X
WARD Harry 38 12-10-17 1st Bn. '235421' TYNE COT multiple H and Harry Langemarck 20.U.23 Poelcappelle 20.V.20 X
HARPER Reginald William   26-10-17 2nd/5th Bn. '9196' TYNE COT Harper R but not R W or Reginald  
COOKE Arthur Tom   14-02-15 2nd Bn. '8646' YPRES (MENIN GATE) Southern Rhodesian Volunteers Zillebeke 28.I.24 X
TAYLOR Edmund 31 14-04-15 2nd Bn. '221' YPRES (MENIN GATE) Edmund #4221 1st Dragoon Guards Zonnebeke 28.D.28 X
GARDNER John Hinde 37 27-04-15 1st/5th Bn. '454' YPRES (MENIN GATE) #27761 31st 9th Bn IY, multiple John  
BLADES James   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '5284' YPRES (MENIN GATE) #196 DCM Loch's Horse, J not James Potijze and Frezenberg 28.C.29 to C.30
BUCK George Frederick   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '8761' YPRES (MENIN GATE) Buck G or George but not G F Potijze and Frezenberg 28.C.29 to C.30
CLARKSON Alfred *37 08-05-15 2nd Bn. '5419' YPRES (MENIN GATE) multiple A including KO-RLR Potijze and Frezenberg 28.C.29 to C.30
HOLMES Robert   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '9155' YPRES (MENIN GATE) multiple R and Robert Potijze and Frezenberg 28.C.29 to C.30
POTTER Marten William   08-05-15 2nd Bn. '9426' YPRES (MENIN GATE) Potter M but not M W or Marten Potijze and Frezenberg 28.C.29 to C.30
DAWES Albert Hartley   27-05-15 1st/5th Bn. '1248' YPRES (MENIN GATE) Dawes A but not A H or Albert  
ROTHWELL Robert   31-07-17 7th Bn. '4244' YPRES (MENIN GATE) R in 4th Bn Royal Warwicks, not Robert  
Edited by laughton
Added: Cross, Thompson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...