Johnny Jupp - Mystery?

[serreroad]

I've just finished watching the "The Last Tommies" - basically an updated and re-edited version of the interviews conducted with old soldiers 20 odd years ago.

One of the names that crops up is Johnny Jupp, the best pal of Tommy Gay, one of the interviewees.  According to Tommy he was hit and killed early on 1st July 1916.  The program shows a picture of him, and if you do a Google search on the name the story is repeated several times in the press.

However, I can't find any record of him on CWGC.  Am I missing something?  He was clearly in a Scottish regiment according to the picture, but the only Jupps who died on 1st July were a Newfoundlander and a Royal Fusilier, and neither of them were called Johnny.

Other than the options that he didn't serve under his own name, or the name provided is completely wrong, are there any other logical conclusions?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks

PS Here is a link to an article in the Sun (yes, I know, not the greatest example of journalistic prowess, but they have only repeated the press release presumably sent out by the BBC...)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7644678/ww1-veterans-the-last-tommies-bbc-four-interviews/

[Heid the Ba]

Old soldier's stories are notoriously unreliable.  Could he have been hit on the first and died of wounds later?  Japp is a more common Scottish name than Jupp, did you check that?

[serreroad]

You gave me renewed hope there, but a search on Japp isn't much more conclusive.

I had already checked for a DOW later, but there is no-one who fits the bill.

There is a "Japp" (Gordon Highlanders) commemorated on Thiepval, died 18th July, but that's quite a long way from the 1st July and he was George.

Thanks anyway.

[Heid the Ba]

The closest I can find are:

 

David Japp of the Black Watch killed 12th July

George Japp of the Gordon Highlanders killed 18th July

 

Which would rely on Johnny being a nickname, the surname being remembered wrongly or mis-heard, and the day being wrongly remembered.  Any of which is possible.

 

Edit: Simulpost.

Edited 21 December , 2018 by Heid the Ba

[serreroad]

David Japp seems the more likely of the two, to my mind.  If he was wounded on the 1st, he might have been shipped home and died over here, to be buried in Brechin?  As you say, that still leaves the forename and surname being misinterpreted, but maybe that's the case...

[Heid the Ba]

Argh! I saw the name of the cemetery and didn't click that it was in Brechin rather than called "Brechin".  I don't think it is likely he would have been well enough to make it home that quickly if he was badly enough wounded to die so soon.

 

Which leaves us with Georgie/Johnny Japp/Jupp dieing on a different day.

[serreroad]

Ahh - OK.  I realised it was tight, but I assumed he might have been repatriated and died in the UK, in a hospital near the coast for example.  If he did, would the family then have been allowed to bury him locally?  Did the same rules apply to casualties who died in the UK, ie they had to be buried "where they fell"??

[esco]

On the picture shown in the link Johnny Jupp is not wearing a Black Watch cap badge . Possibly Argyll & Sutherland or Gordons .

 

                                                                                              Regards Steve.

Edited 21 December , 2018 by esco
spelling

[Heid the Ba]

I looked briefly at the link but didn't see anything useful, just tits and nonsense.

[TTracer44]

There was no need to go that far down the page, or was you after some nonsense!

Den

appoigies,

couldnt resist It.

Edited 21 December , 2018 by TTracer44

[Mark1959]

Listened to Thomas and read the article. Where does it state they went over the top on 1st July? Newspaper reports are notoriously factually incorrect. So I would take a broader view. One can perhaps assume that Thomas and Johnny were in the same unit and that is what I would follow up. 

Edit

This

https://www.historyextra.com/period/first-world-war/last-survivors-first-world-war-harry-patch-bbc-four/

indicates Thomas was born 1898 and joined 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers in 1914. It does suggest he was talking about 1/7/16.

Possibly 20478. Thomas William Gay. From Peckham. This man joined 6/11/1915 and was a POW as suggested in the link. 20478 went to France 18/4/16. Joined 2 RSF 28/5/16. Went missing 30/7/16. POW until 25/11/18. Home from then until discharge 27/3/19.

So we should be looking for a Jupp (if his memory was correct) or almost certainly a RSF man killed July 1916. 

Edited 21 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thomas Gay 12 RSF MIC

Cpl. John T. Jupp, RSF MIC

 

Doesn't look as though this Jupp was killed.

[Mark1959]

20478. Further circumstantial evidence that he is correct man.  Thomas William Gay born 25/4/1898. Died 1Q/1999. Death registered Brentwood.

The surviving docs indicate he claimed to be 19 on enlistment - he was 17 1/2 if we have the right man.

edit

CWGC show nearly all the RSF men killed 1/7/16 to 4/7/16 were 2 RSF. None have a name remotely like Jupp.

Edited 21 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[Mark1959]

20477 was John Thomas Jupp as indicated in post 12. So looks though they enlisted together. Thomas is not the 12 RSF man indicated by Post 12; he is 20478.

FWR have a transcribed record that says 20477 Jupp appears in a War Office Casualty List dated 25/6/16. Shell Shock. He was later in Labour Corps. So he was not killed as implied. Residence is given as SE London. It would appear he was very unlikely to have been at the front on 1/7/16 

Unless anyone can pick holes in the logic we have an answer. It would seem Thomas Gay may have been confused with an incident that occurred a few weeks before, etc

Edited 22 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thomas W. Gay 20478 RSF  MIC

 

Jupp's card also has him (later?) as Labour Corps, 503396.

Might he have been transferred after being wounded, Gay believing him to have been killed?

Edit. I see Mark already has that covered.

Edited 22 December , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Mark1959]

15 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Thomas W. Gay 20478 RSF  MIC

 

Jupp's card also has him (later?) as Labour Corps, 503396.

Might he have been transferred after being wounded, Gay believing him to have been killed?

I think we will never know. Trying to find later records for Jupp. No luck to date. 

Nice we can link the records to Gay and listen to him talk.

Jupp’s glengarry looks correct for RSF.

Edited 22 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[esco]

2 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

I think we will never know. Trying to find later records for Jupp. No luck to date. 

Nice we can link the records to Gay and listen to him talk.

Jupp’s glengarry looks correct for RSF.

 

 Sorry , but what makes you think that is a R.S.F. badge on the glengarry ? 

[Mark1959]

The glengarry itself looks right. The badge you can only see the bottom of it. So I did not say the badge looks right. I reserve judgement on the badge

edit If you pause the film at 1:47 you get a better view of Jupp’s glengarry.. All I’ll say is the badger is the right general shape for RSF; nothing more.  But I do not pretend to be knowledgable on the subject.

Edited 22 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[serreroad]

Thanks all.  I'm not going to comment on the cap badge, but I will say everything else fits perfectly.  It has to be the same Johnny Jupp and he clearly didn't die how and when Gay suggests he did.  I watched the relevant sections again last night and

1) Gay suggests he was a good pal, so it's perfectly logical that they joined up together - great bit of detective work there

2) His testimony appears in the 2nd of 3 programs, which is all about the lead up to and fighting of the Somme battles.  The section where he explains about the loss of his mate is all about 1st July (Malins film footage, etc).  He says "From the moment we went over the top I never saw him any more."  "He must have got a bullet right away."

So maybe he got confused?  Or maybe the testimony actually concerned another battle, but the editor thought it worked nicely for a description of 1st July, so in it went??!   Either way, as has been suggested above, Jupp could have been wounded in a previous battle, immediately after going over the top, as Gay suggests?  But he survived and later joined the labour corps, and Gay is quite right in saying he "...never saw him any more"?  Seems odd that if they were such good pals, from the same part of town, that they never made contact again, but who knows.  What seems pretty clear now is that he was neither injured nor killed on 1st July...?

 

[esco]

6 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

The glengarry itself looks right. The badge you can only see the bottom of it. So I did not say the badge looks right. I reserve judgement on the badge

edit If you pause the film at 1:47 you get a better view of Jupp’s glengarry.. All I’ll say is the badger is the right general shape for RSF; nothing more.  But I do not pretend to be knowledgable on the subject.

 

 My apologies , I do believe it is a RSF cap badge .

                                                                                         Regards Steve.

[Mark1959]

No need to apologise. It is only by questioning we get to the right answer, The strength of the GWF is we all bring various types of knowledge to the table. It is easy to make "facts" suit a particular theory. Everybody should be happy to challenge and everybody happy to be challenged

[serreroad]

Thanks again everyone.  Original mystery solved I think, although it does throw up numerous further questions!

Anyway, could I briefly return to my question in post no 7.  Does anyone know, were casualties who died in the UK (DOW, training accidents, sickness or whatever) allowed to be repatriated to their local family churchyard?  There are obviously a lot of military headstones in civilian cemeteries, but are these of boys who died while convalescing at home, or could they have died anywhere back in Blighty?  I'll repost the question elsewhere if no-one knows.  Many thanks.

[Mark1959]

I have come across a number of chaps who died in military hospitals or camps who were returned to be interred where their family lived. 

Despite a lot of searching I have been unable to establish a potential JT Jupp. - so at a lost to determine what happened to him.

Edited 22 December , 2018 by Mark1959

[corisande]

Any soldier who died anywhere In the U.K. , and for the uninitiated that included Ireland at that time, could have the body taken back to their home town for burial, at the election of the family

 

But there were fairly tight financial constraints as to what the army would reimburse if the family wanted the body brought back. Anything above that, the family had to pay

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

In 1911, there was a 16 year old John Jupp living with father Alfred (and others) at 10 Bridson Street, Peckham (So born abt. 1895).

A street that no longer exists, it lay somewhere between the Old Kent Road and Manor Grove.

He has a surviving attestation paper dated September 1914 in the Pension Records on Ancestry, confirming him to be the son of Alfred of 10 Bridson Street.

Shows this man to be John James Jupp, aged 19 and 152 days enlisted in Royal Fusiliers G/4187, and almost rejected because of cardiac problems.

So, born around April 1895.

So, with this middle name, and RF not RSF, he doesn't seem to be our man.

John James Jupp's death is possibly recorded as:

Deaths Mar 1962   (>99%)

JUPP John J 67 Camberwell 5c310  

 

That leaves this death that could be the right man?:

 

Sep 1956   (>99%)

Jupp John 62 Eastbourne 5h222

 

The only other vaguely possible one would be :

Deaths Dec 1956   (>99%)

JUPP John 71 Surrey S.E. 5g822  

but he would have been born about 1885, so 13 years older than Thomas.

 

 

In 1911 a 12 year old Thomas Gay lived at Hardcastle Street, Peckham.

This street was demolished by a V2 in 1944, was between Peckham High Street and Marmont Road.