How well is World War I remembered in your countries? Do you have any monuments to WW1 in your cities, do you have any special days commemorating the events from WW1?

[Pasanax]

Hello, I am posting for the first time on this forum, and I have a question for you!

 

Like the title says, what does your country do for the memory of the war. I am specially interested in people from Austria and Hungary, or other ex-Central Powers. I am from Croatia, and even tho Croatia lost around 7% of its population, we have almost 0 memory of The Great War, as if it was erased from our memories. Yes, we learn of the war in schools like everyone else, but... we don't even have a special museum for The Great War. I understand the reason why was the memory of the war hindered in my country, and I could discuss that with you. I am interested if the situation is similar in other countries.

[JWK]

The Netherlands (Neutral at the time)

 

There´s a monument to some 300 fishermen from the fishing village of Scheveningen (which is now, in name only!!!, part of The Hague –where I live-.  )

Dedicated to the fishermen who lost their lives in WW1, due to sea-mines, enemy war-ships etc

Largely (Totally?) forgotten by the rest of the country, but véry dear to the hearts of the people of that fishing village.

 

In Enschede, on the Dutch-German border, there’s a monument commemorating the repatriation of the POW’s from Germany. Countless thousands, of all possible nationalities, passed through that town in 1918-1919

 

The Belgian Monument at Amersfoort (the largest momunent in size in the country). A “Thank you’ from the Belgian refugees, for the warm welcome they received in the Netherlands (1 million refugees on a population of some 6-7 million)

But the Dutch Government díd issue the Belgians a bill for several millions after the war –for the upkeep of their interned soldiers- which led to diplomatic trouble.

 

And there are more monuments (in Rotterdam and Ysselsteyn e.g.)

 

But on the whole: 11th November is start of carnival in the south of the country.

And for the rest the 11th is the day following the 10th and preceding the 12th.

There have been a lot of TV programs about this "forgotten part of our history", and many a book published on "the Netherlands in WW1" but it won't ever become mainstream.

 

And did the then Queen Wilhelmina have any pre-knowledge of her fellow monarch the Kaiser seeking asylum in the Netherlands?  

The official version is she absolutely did nót, she resented the Kaiser for his actions, but recent investigations show maybe she did (and she loved the Kaiser)

100 years later and we stíll don’t know for certain….

[Pasanax]

Very nice, thank you for your answer. It seems its a similar situation everywhere as far as I can find out. The Great War is overshadowed by the second war, because we still live in the post second war era and the political consequences are still vivid.

 

In the meantime since I posted this I found out there are two monuments in city of Karlovac (Karlstadt).

 

One is a wartime wooden sculpture of an Austrian eagle grasping a Croatian herald in its claws. It was put in Karlovac as part of a fundraising campaign for the war efforts (called ''I give gold for iron'') for the war, today it is displayed as a monument for the soldiers died.

 

 

There is also in the same city a little sculpture made of fired shells from the Isonzo battle, where a lot of Croatian soldiers participated.

 

Because of events directly after the war, there is not a single monument in Croatia to Svetozar Borojević (a Croat), the only non-german Feldmarchall in the Austro-Hungarian forces, called the Lion of Isonzo by his fellow soldiers. That always makes me kind of sad and I would like to see a monument to him.

[familyhistoryman]

This is the German War Memorial website

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/en.htm

Tony

[ForeignGong]

In Australia WW1 is massive compared to WW2 as we commemorate ANZAC Day as our day of remembrance, this includes all the conflicts we have participated in but WW1 is the main remembrance. We have Dawn services to remember the landing at Gallipoli and in Perth, Western Australia, with a population of 1 million we have 30,000 to 35,000 attending.

[phil andrade]

Greetings, Pasanax !  Above all, welcome.

 

Your contribution is valuable and helpful.  We need to learn so much more about the soldiers who fought in the armies of the Dual Monarchy.

 

I had a kind of “Damascene” moment about ten years ago when I visited close friends who live in Verona in Italy.

 

Knowing my love of history, and my interest in the Great War in particular, they took me to an old military cemetery in the city.  This is the resting ground of several thousand soldiers from the fighting of 1915-18, who died fighting for the Central Powers. The names on the graves were roughly equally divided between Slavic and Teutonic provenance. There were enthusiasists who had restored the cemetery since the downfall of the Soviet Union had bestowed independence on several republics.  I am sure that Croatian soldiers were a significant contingent in this cemetery.  I suppose that these soldiers were wounded and prisoners who had been taken away from the frontlines, and had died in Italian captivity. The fact that they were named indicates this....battlefield interments are often anonymous .  The death rate among POWs was appallingly high in this theatre, with both Italian and Austro Hungarian prisoners perishing in scores of thousands. A topic worth studying, I think.

 

Hoping we will develop this discussion.

 

 

Editing here : I realise, of course, that Croatia achieved its status pursuant to the break up of Yugoslavia, rather than the old Soviet Union.  To a degree, I conflate these , but would hate to generalise too much.

Phil

Edited 4 December , 2018 by phil andrade

[Pasanax]

Hello Phil, thank you very much for your answer and the interest in this topic. The cemetery in Italy is such an interesting place to hear about, because you cant really find Croatian soldiers graves in Croatia, since the battles were fought on the fronts outside of today's Croatia (with exception to sea and a small part in NE Croatia, bordering Serbia).

 

Croatia had indeed achieved its current status as an independent republic after the breaking of Yugoslavia, but Croatia is indeed not a new state. It always existed as part of Hungarian kingdom (something like Scotland to England/UK), and together they joined Habsburgs in 1527.

 

Very interesting topic, but it is something I would write about if I start a topic about the causes of The Great War from Balkans perspective.

 

Now to go back, and share my opinion about why Croatia does not have a memory of its soldiers from the war. I would not call myself a historian since I wrote only one paper on The Great War, but I am a history majors or how do you call it in different countries.

 

Croatia was split into two parts prior and during the war. Its northern part (the ''core'' Croatia) was governed historically by the Hungarian part of the Empire, and Southern (province of Dalmatia) was governed (in)directly by Vienna. Both entities prior the war mostly considered themselves to be by nationality Croatian (very difficult topic, and a bit simplified), or chatolic Yugoslavs. People who lived there and were orthodox, at this time identified themselves as Serbs or Yugoslavs aswell. Now all subjects of the Empire had to go to war, so did both parts of Croatia. Hundred of thousands of Croatian troops thus were fighting against the enemy that was the Kingdom of Serbia. So Croats forced in a way to fight Serbs (which at this time had no prior grudge to each other).

 

So ofcourse after the war and the dissolution of the Empire, you had those two parts of Croatia together with Slovenia form a separate state called the State of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians. It existed only for one month when its politicians decided to merge with former enemy state Kingdom of Serbia, thus forming Kingdom of Yugoslavia with the Serb dynasty that fought against Austria-Hungary, basically fulfilling their political aspirations to form a unified state of all southern slavs (pushed by a part of slavic politicians from Austria-Hungary).

 

My point is, all of the houndreds of thousands of Croatian veterans who fought against Kingdom of Serbia, suddenly find themselves in the same state with them, and governed by the ex-hostile serbian dynasty. It takes little effort to understand that being in a Croatian veteran position now was difficult. Who on earth would raise monument to remember them in the new formed state of Yugoslavia, when they were technically enemies. So you had ex-pro german/austrian people who would surely like to remember their fallen and their deeds, under anti-german government.

 

Also as you can imagine, Yugoslavia with the Serbian dynasty was very very anti-german (or read as austrian, its the same here) and the new agenda was that anything that was german was bad of course since they defended themselves heroically against them in a bloodshed for 4 years. So no, no monuments to any Austrian soldiers, reasonably.

 

The agenda continued in the second Yugoslavia (communist, under president Josip Broz Tito) since Tito was fiercly fighting the Germans in the WW2. So again, anything german was considered evil after 1945, hence nobody will raise a monument to the german/austrian aligned soldiers of the first war.

 

And here we are, from 1991. and separation of Croatia from Yugoslavia, that agenda officially ended. Today Croats have a hearty relation to german people, specially since Germany was pro-Croatia during the Yugoslav wars.

 

So only now in this state we can actually start to face our past, and remember all the men and women that died in the great war, without giving a second thought about it. But it is indeed going way too slow, and WWI probably will never become a thing since Croatian history is overshadowed by the Second War and Yugoslav wars and it takes way too much attention.

 

Edited 4 December , 2018 by Pasanax
Explanation, grammar errors

[phil andrade]

Thank you, Pasanax.

 

Do you mind if I express surprise - perhaps even doubt - about your claim that Croatia lost 7% of its population in the Great War ?

 

I would be grateful for clarification.

 

Do you mean that 7% of the entire population died ; or do you refer just to the soldiers ?

 

What was the population of Croats in 1914 ?

 

France lost 1.3 million soldiers from a population of 39 million : that, as a percentage, equates to 3.3, and  is less than half that seven per cent that you mention. But if we count civilians who died from hunger and hardship - and illness - then things look very different.

 

Did the loss of Croat people come about through battlefield slaughter, or from suffering on the home front, or from subsequent expulsion of people who weren’t welcome ?

 

Phil

[Pasanax]

I've taken the number of casualties from a known Croatian historian, Ivo Goldstein.

 

He counts 137.000 soldiers and 109.000 civilians (mostly sickness and hunger).

 

Population counts were done separately for today's northern Croatia (governed by Hungary, called Hrvatska and Slavonia, which are two historical entities), and today's southern Croatia (governed by Austria, called Dalmatia) and the province of Istria (governed by Austria). So in 1910, today's Croatian territory was actually 4 historical entities in Austria-Hungary = Hrvatska (meaning Croatia in english), Slavonia, Dalmatia and Istria.

 

For Hrvatska and Slavonia (north) the population count in 1910. was around 2.6 million.

 

I know the table is not in english, but i think you can understand.

 

For Dalmatia (south) I've found that the population was around 650.000 in 1910. I don't have a table to show you that, but I've taken that out of a text.

For Istria (north-west) i've found that the population was around 350.000 in in 1910. I don't have a table to show aswel.

 

 

So overall, entire four part Croatia had around 3.5 million people in 1910.

 

So estimated total casualties of the war are 246.000 (soldiers + civilians), divided by population of 1910. which is 3.6 million, gives us around 7% of population. It varies a lot of course, but its how we get the estimated percentage. (its 4% if you count only the soldiers).

 

Hope that clears it up a little bit

 

Toni

 

P.S. I don't think there was expulsion of people who weren't welcome. They were accepted as far as I know it. There were lots and lots of people  that had to leave the country or face trial/execution after the second world war, but not the first, as far as I am familiar.

 

EDIT: i forgot to count one region, now i've fixed it. And I've decided to include a map, since this could be a bit confusing.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 December , 2018 by Pasanax
PS, and edit had to rearrange the numbers, i forgot to include one region

[phil andrade]

Many thanks, Toni.

 

It’s a remarkable record.

 

I believe that the Austro Hungarian Empire contained about fifty million subjects in 1914.  The total deaths from the armies were estimated to have been between 1.1 and 1.5 million.  The higher figure equates to about 3% of the total population : slightly less than that of Metropolitan France.  The Croatian figure of 4.1% is, therefore, so much higher as to arouse interest.  Why would Croatian soldiers suffer so disproportionately ?  Were they more committed, or just especially unfortunate ?

 

Croatian soldiers were, you tell me, deployed in the warfare against the Serbs.  Does this account for the higher death rate ?

 

Serbia herself took uniquely high male fatality rates in the war, although the estimates of losses are bewilderingly diverse. 

 

Am I right in suggesting that the ferocity of the warfare in the Serbian theatres of the conflict was particularly extreme, with ancient rivalries and racial/religious differences making it deadlier than elsewhere ?

 

Does this account for the higher death rate of the Croatian contingents, compared with the others from the Dual Monarchy ?

 

Phil

[Pasanax]

Hey Phil,

 

I will try to give you some answers with things that come to my mind. I can't really confirm you what made the numbers so high, but i can surly give you my thoughts on it.

 

First of all, Croats were used extensively by Austrians as their fighting force throughout history, and here is why. During the wars with the Ottoman Empire, a part of the Croatian territory was taken from the nobles by the Austrian government in order to create a special military buffer zone between the Austrian Empire and the Ottoman Empire. They called that territory Military Frontier, and it existed as such for around 300+ years, up until its dissolution and reintegration into Croatian authority in 1881. Military frontier existed as a first reaction to Ottoman attacks, and also to prevent smaller skirmishes from Bosnia. People who lived there had a special status, they didin't have lords since the entire region was subjected to military rule from Vienna. They would get land for their military service. As far as I know it, this was the only region in Europe at the time that served as ''barracks in the open'', that had this military state/province status. It was populated by a lot of different people, because a lot of people fled the Ottomans, but they were stopped by the Austrians and told they can only settle in the Military Frontier, and were given land there to serve as soldiers (it was good for the fleeing people too, because they were landless now and this gave them land). Eventually that mix of people in the mid 19. century accepted the general nationalistic ideologies that were present in that area and catholic people started to call themselves Croatians, and orthodox people from the frontier started to call themselves Serbs (again, another deep topic, and very simplified here). Now, people from the Military Frontier were used in all of Austria's wars since they were tough soldiers born and raised on the borders with the Turks, with lives commited to military service.

 

They were good and tough soldiers, praised by Napoleon when he annexed the Military Frontier and used its manpower. So there is a long past with Austrians using Croatians as a must in all of its conflicts. So my point here is Croats were extensively used, and Austrians were used to them as a fighting force.

 

Here is a poorly drawn map from the internet just to give you a visual of what am writing.

 

Croats were deployed not only against the Serbs, but also north in Galicia and to the west on the Isonzo river. There was a general agenda in the older Yougoslav history literature that Croats didn't want to fight the Serbs on the eastern front, that they would give up arms rather than fight its brotherly people. That is certainly true to some extend. Many young people at the time believed that Croats and Slovenes as Slavic people must be united with Serbia, its brothers, and form a big Slavic state with them with Serbians leading the way as an independent slavic kingdom (and that happened eventually). Austrians were terrified of this idea, and that is where most of the hate against Serbia comes from, and that's why Vienna believed that Serbia must be destroyed at all costs.

 

BUT, as I sad that was the idea that was pushed strongly in Yugoslav historiography, that wanted to show unity of south slavic peoples. Nowadays we tend to have a slightly different opinion. Many many Croats were loyal to Austria-Hungary, specially those that were very religious. Even tho part of Croatian politicians permanently pushed the idea of uniting with Serbs, many of the common people were against it and they would fight the Serbs fiercely. Only at the late years of the war, anti-war agenda and peace talk surely overwhelmed most of the soldiers. Now I remember I read about the 53rd infantry regiment the Ungarisch-Kroatisches Infanterie Regiment "Dankl" Nr. 53. and apparently there guys were fighting so commited on the Serbian front they were nicknamed Devil's Regiment. Also, I remember reading they were killing lots of Serb civilians too. So that idea of Croats not wanting to fight Serbs doesn't quite hold water. But on the other hand you had the ''Yugoslav legion'' where some Croats had joined to fight against Austria Hungary and help establish the post war Yugoslavia. I think since the first idea of Yugoslavia, you have a split between Croatians - they either love it or hate it with passion. That counts to this day.

 

Now, you asked were they commited more because of ancient rivalries and racial/religious differences, I would say no, not because of that. Croats and Serbs never fought each other before this war, there was no bad blood between them, ever. Racial differences do not exist, because Serbs and Croats are, well, basically the same people speaking the same language, having the same surnames etc etc... but Croats are Catholic and Serbs are Orthodox and we are divided by our history. Religious reasons, I don't know really at that time how big was the hate between orthodox and catholic. I would dare to say it was way less than today.

 

My personal opinion is that the big death toll of Croat soldiers is due to incompetence of the Austro-Hungarian army. The first campaign against Serbia was a slaughterhouse on both sides. Incompetent leadership of Austro-Hungarians couldn't crush a poor country in one sweep. As far as I know the serbian death toll is so high because they recruited so much of volunteers ready to defend every inch of their ''fatherland'', they were really devoted. It was a heroic fight from the Serbs, and no one can deny that. I couldn't dare to say that Austrians didn't care for the Slavic people in their army, so hence you can use them more as a meat grinder. I don't think that, I believe its general bad management.ž

 

But for the Isonzo front, I can confirm that Croatians had an additional motive to fight better. Italians were a traditional threat to the Eastern Adriatic Shore, there is quite a bit of grudge between the Slavs and Italians. On the Isonzo, Italians were on the attack and Slavs (Croats, and Slovens don't forget them too) fought to defend their own lands and it is known they were very motivated to fight the Italians. I could say that dedication played a role there in the high death tolls and it played a role in Austrian command stationing Slavs there purposefully to fight the Italians.

 

I cant compare Croatian contingent's death tolls to others, because I never looked up how many soldiers died by nationality from the Monarchy, but I surly will now.

 

Toni

Edited 4 December , 2018 by Pasanax
Explanation, grammar errors

[phil andrade]

Toni,

 

You have been most helpful here.  Thank you for making a big effort.

 

Your description of the martial qualities of people in the borderlands makes me think of the Scottish regiments in the British Army.

 

Same kind of battlefield reputation, entailing fierce fighting and heavy loss of life.

 

We’ve had some interesting research on this forum about the exaggerated claims for Scottish death rates.

 

Perhaps the Croatians were the Spartans of the old empire !

 

Phil

[Pasanax]

Thank you, I enjoy discussing these topics. And yes the frontier people were quite interesting, there are numerous accounts about them. They say they were constantly swearing, fighting, beating their wives, they were very loud... I remember that one writer wrote when he entered the house of a frontierman that his wife was sleeping on the floor, while he had a bed. And that he introduced himself: ''My name is That and That, and this is, sadly, my wife.'' And the people who live in these areas (we say behind the mountains) still have a very similar mentality haha... Apparently on a cathedral in Magdeburg there was an inscription from the Thirty years war that said: ''God save us from the plague and Croats''. I think that's a legend or a saying, just like it is said here that Napoleon once said: ''Give me 100.000 Croats and I will conquer the world''. Of course these all might be made up, since nobody ever confirmed those.

 

You can't trust the numbers in history, even when you dig them yourself its very very hard, so exaggeration is, of course, omnipresent. I don't think Croats are Spartans haha, but they sure do have an interesting and long military history considering what a small people we are.

[JWK]

A véry interesting read, thank you @Pasanax

I am now slowly beginning to understand the workings of the Balkans.

I vividly remember that during the Balkan troubles there ofcourse was the annual Eurovision Songcontest, and I was always amazed that those countries that fought eachother into oblivion at the time would, at the same time, vote for eachother like there was no tomorrow.

 

The Magdeburger quote could well come from one of the 2-4000 people seeking shelter in Magdeburg Cathedral, which Commander Tilly didn't attack.

The English Wiki-page on the "Magdeburg Wedding" give some safe-for-work detail on it all, but the German version takes it a lot further.

Don't mess with the Croatians!

 

 

[Pasanax]

Thank you JWK for that Magdeburg story, I really don't know too much about The Thirty Years war and I am not familiar with the whole Cathedral event. 

 

But considering serb-croat relations, Eurovision is such a good reference haha, honestly! It is really love and hate relations between us. You have the most nationalistic/religious people that always speak bad about the Serbs, but when they drink a bit and hear serbian music they explode with euphoria. It is very hard to understand Balkans, and I have hardly ever read something from foreign authors that I haven't had second toughts about it, they always slightly miss the point. And if you read domestic authors, you have to be even more careful because they can one sided (but you cant spot that as a foreign reader). For me, there is no good or bad in the Balkans... perhaps we are all bad haha