David Earley Posted 30 November , 2018 Share Posted 30 November , 2018 (edited) I am researching Captain (Master) Frederick George Porter Eccleston who is listed by CWGC (https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/473763/eccleston,-frederick-g.-p./) as having died in Egypt on 10 August 1918 from H.M.T. Dee. (I have newspaper cutting which says he drowned in the Suez Canal.) Firstly, can I confirm that H.M.T. stands for "Hired Military Transport"? Secondly, can someone help me to identify this particular vessel? Wikipedia has an article about the Axe-class trawler which includes an HMT Dee, but this seems to have been requisitioned after 1917, and was originally named HMT Battleaxe. TNA have a file on Ship: Dee; Official number: 113903 - is this the vessel? This one had a crew of about 50 in 1915, whereas the ones on Wikipedia only had a complement of 18. Third, is there some form of "career file" or service record for Capt. Eccleston? The TNA website have a trio of files relating to him as master of the Monmouthshire in 1915, but that's all I can find. Finally, is there any way of discovering more about how Captain Eccleston died and the circumstances of his drowning? Any help would be greatly appreciated. David Earley Edited 30 November , 2018 by David Earley correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 30 November , 2018 Admin Share Posted 30 November , 2018 Hi David I think you will find HMT is His Majesty's Trawler. Used for those trawlers requisitioned for war work such as minesweeping. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 30 November , 2018 Share Posted 30 November , 2018 (edited) Not in this case. I think Hired Military Transport is correct. The Grimsby trawler DEE was engaged in fishing around UK as part of the Fishery Reserve and would not have had a Master in command. Edited 30 November , 2018 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 30 November , 2018 Admin Share Posted 30 November , 2018 Ah, caught out by the duplication of abbreviations, yet again! Thanks Horatio2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm12hl Posted 30 November , 2018 Share Posted 30 November , 2018 I agree with Horatio. The vessel in question will be the Royal Mail Steam Packet Co. 1,871 ton coastal liner DEE, O.N.113903 built in 1902 by Craig, Taylor & Co. of Stockton-on-Tees for Royal Mail's West Indian local service. She was taken up for service as a transport early in the war and served throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Earley Posted 4 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2018 Thanks for your help guys. Can anyone deal with my third & fourth queries? On 30/11/2018 at 10:22, David Earley said: Third, is there some form of "career file" or service record for Capt. Eccleston? The TNA website have a trio of files relating to him as master of the Monmouthshire in 1915, but that's all I can find. Finally, is there any way of discovering more about how Captain Eccleston died and the circumstances of his drowning? Thanks David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 4 December , 2018 Admin Share Posted 4 December , 2018 In relation to the last question you could try the ship's log - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1733780 - sadly not yet digitised so would need a visit to Kew or pay a researcher to copy them for you. Also, you might try the newspapers local to where the Captain was born / lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm12hl Posted 4 December , 2018 Share Posted 4 December , 2018 All of a merchant marine Master's postings are recorded in the Lloyd's Captains Registers. The originals are in the Guildhall Library in the City of London, and if memory serves, the National Archives at Kew have microfilm copies. The Monmouthshire was owned by the Shire Line, which by 1915 had become part of the Royal Mail group, which also owned the Dee, so your man was probably a long-term Royal Mail employee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Earley Posted 4 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2018 Great - That points me in the right direction. I plan to visit Kew in January, so I will add the ship's log to my list of files to examine. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 4 December , 2018 Admin Share Posted 4 December , 2018 Lloyd's archive details https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+CLC~2FB~2F148?SESSIONSEARCH NA apparently doesn't have them http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N14086888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 4 December , 2018 Share Posted 4 December , 2018 On ancestry.co.uk under "U.K. and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates 1850 - 1927" you will find images of "Certificates of Competency as a ................. of a Foreign-going Ship" in the categories 2nd Mate, 1st Mate, and Master for Frederick George Porter Eccleston. He qualified as a 2nd Mate on 3 December 1891, as a 1st Mate on 14 December 1895, and as a Master on 17 April 1897. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm12hl Posted 5 December , 2018 Share Posted 5 December , 2018 I have cross-checked and can confirm that the Lloyd's Captains Registers have been moved from the Guildhall Library to the London Metropolitan Archives. It also appears as if the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich have microfilm copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Earley Posted 6 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2018 On 04/12/2018 at 14:41, HarryBrook said: On ancestry.co.uk under "U.K. and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates 1850 - 1927" you will find images of "Certificates of Competency as a ................. of a Foreign-going Ship" in the categories 2nd Mate, 1st Mate, and Master for Frederick George Porter Eccleston. Thanks Harry for looking, but I have seen these already ! Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Earley Posted 1 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 1 May , 2019 I have now completed my article about Captain Eccleston which is at http://www.sussexpeople.co.uk/captain-frederick-george-porter-eccleston/. On 4 July 1916, he was in command of SS Monmouthshire when she collided with SS Persian in the middle of the Mediterranean. As the ship's log reports, the collision happened when the visibility was good and the wind was moderate, so I find it hard to understand how two ships can collide with such force that the Persian (half the size of the Monmouthshire) could be so badly damaged as to keel over and sink within an hour of the collision. Would there have been an enquiry into the sinking, or was this lost in the "fog of war"? I can't find a ship,s log for the Persian - presumably this went down with the ship. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wightspirit Posted 1 May , 2019 Share Posted 1 May , 2019 1916 crew agreement here: https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=99062 It may or may not include the date of interest. If you send an enquiry and ask you'll find them very helpful. If they have the one you want it'll be sent via email. I cannot find a Court of Enquiry record as such for the loss of the Persian, but if you search the National Archives website and enter your search under the reference HCA (which means Higher Court of Admiralty) you'll find 8 files for the Persian, some of which may be of interest. Having had some experience of viewing similar files, sometimes you'll strike lucky with a detailed account of the incident, other times the files will be tied up in legal argument which don't really advance the search for what exactly happened. One other area worthy of enquiry might be The Times - quite often reports from the Admiralty Court appeared in the columns, giving s précis of what took place. Dave W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Earley Posted 2 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 2 May , 2019 Thanks Dave. That's very helpful. Six of the files that I have located are in respect of court cases between the owners of the two vessels, so they are bound to contain something of use. I feel another visit to TNA coming! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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