Royal Welsh Fusiliers

[Pauls25]

Hi I am trying to find any information of a relative who served with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers 9882 Walter Sargant killed on the 5th Feb 1916 I believe I can't find any information anywhere.

[sotonmate]

Your details identify a soldier with 2 Battalion RWF, a part of 19 Infantry Brigade of 6 Division. He is shown as landing in France on 13 Aug 1914.

Killed at BOIS GRENIER on 5 Feb 1916 whilst in the front line trenches and under fire from enemy artillery and trench mortars.1 other killed and 5 wounded. Soldiers Died in the Great War gives him as born and enlisted in Birmingham.

War Diary for 2 RWF can  be seen at Ancestry UK (with a sub) or on Discovery database at Kew under ref WO95/1365/3.

 

[Pauls25]

That's Great thanks for your help he was my Great Uncle I don't know much about him so any info would be fantastic

[clive_hughes]

According to Graham Knight's Fighting With The Royal Welsh (2013) about Midlanders serving in the Regiment during 1900-19, he was the son of Alfred Joseph and Ellen Sargant, resident (in 1891) 6 Cottage Place, St.Luke's Road, Balsall Heath.  He was a Regular Army soldier enlisting in about 1908 (on a 12-year contract), and had served in Burma and India.  The RWF found Birmingham to be a good recruiting ground before the war, and they had the unofficial nickname of "Birmingham Fusiliers".  

 

He came over to France with the original BEF, and presumably served during 1914-15 in the Retreat From Mons, Marne, Aisne, Ypres, and Neuve Chapelle prior to the actions in which he died.  His body was recovered and he is buried at Cambrin Churchyard Extension, grave K16.  He lies alongside a number of comrades who died with him then and later.  If you want to know what the unit did in the war, I also recommend J.C.Dunn's The War The Infantry Knew (he was their tough-minded medical officer); and as a superb view from the Ranks, Frank Richards' Old Soldiers Never Die.  

 

Clive

Edited 12 November , 2018 by clive_hughes

[Pauls25]

Thanks for the info Alfred and Ellen are my Great Grandparents

[Pauls25]

Would anyone know if their are any photos of his battalion at the time and where would I find them

[LarsA]

You might check the book ”Duty Done” by David Langley, it has photos. Also is a very good source for information on the 2nd RWF in the great war.

 

Lars

[Keith_history_buff]

On 12/11/2018 at 12:44, clive_hughes said:

they had the unofficial nickname of "Birmingham Fusiliers".  

 

 

Unfortunately, I do not have immediate access to my copy, but doesn't Frank Richards mention this in "Old Soldier Sahib" when he raises the question of how "welsh" the regiment actually was?

I got the impression that with the South Wales Borderers, pre-war there were economic migrants from England who gave up on coal mining to become soldiers. If the recruiting district was experiencing an economic boom, I would hazard a guess this could lessen the flow of recruits in peacetime, if more lucrative work were locally available. A deep dive on the 1911 Census and resultant evidence would give some weight on how large the contingent of Midlanders was pre-war.

I don't have the book to hand, but I am sure Richards made some comment about wishing he had stayed on for longer, with a view to becoming the regimental canteen manager once he left the service.

[clive_hughes]

Hi Keithhb

The official statistics state that in 1913 only 1.36 per cent of the Regular Army was of Welsh birth.  In that year the three Welsh recruiting districts provided 653 recruits (2.4 per cent of the total).  

 

The 1911 Census shows that on 2 April that year 33 per cent of the men of 2nd Battalion RWF were born in the Midlands and 23 per cent were Welsh-born. 

 

I think you are right regarding economic factors and it also involves comparative populations ("rural" regiments were perhaps always at a disadvantage compared to those anchored in industrial regions?).  It was also partly due to religion - where Nonconformity was strong (as in most of Wales) there was a stronger bias against soldiering as a profession.  

 

Clive

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for the info from the 1911 Census.

 

Regards
Keith

[Scalyback]

13 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

It was also partly due to religion - where Nonconformity was strong (as in most of Wales) there was a stronger bias against soldiering as a profession.  

 

I would say further to that the Union and Labour party movement also having a strong bias against the military. 

 

EDIT. How was Monmouth considered at the time? That is a lot of SWB recruitment area and Welsh area in general for population at the time. 

Edited 17 March , 2019 by Scalyback

[Keith_history_buff]

Monmouthshire was Frank Richard's area of residence, but the allure of black lace on the collar was to see him join the RWF. Although there seemed to be a lot of work in the coal mines of South Wales, the conditions weren't great, and as you say, the organised workers in unions would have had a large membership.

 

[Scalyback]

37 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Monmouthshire was Frank Richard's area of residence, but the allure of black lace on the collar was to see him join the RWF. Although there seemed to be a lot of work in the coal mines of South Wales, the conditions weren't great, and as you say, the organised workers in unions would have had a large membership.

 

 

The Flash is black ribbon not lace, indeed he mentions "five black ribbons" in Old Soldier Sahib. 

 

 

[clive_hughes]

Scalyback,

You raise an interesting point as regards Monmouthshire.  Technically, it wasn't part of Wales until the late 1940s - this sometimes led to the statistical description "Wales including Monmouthshire".   Together with Brecknockshire it formed the 24th Recruiting Area in 1914.  It did contain a substantial, mostly industrial population.    

 

This is not to say that the population of these areas was nearly all Welsh by birth - it has been pointed out by historian Chris Williams that in 1911 some 17.4 per cent of males enumerated that night within Wales were of English birth.  I suspect that the proportion would have been higher in urban/industrial areas.  Just for comparison, Williams says that 11.1 per cent of all Welsh-born males were likewise enumerated within England.  

 

Yes, I also think that Labour/Union supporters might not tend to support the military; but then neither did the (rather stronger) Liberal party.  By 1914 Labour in Wales had some five MPs, all in the South; there were three Conservatives/Unionists; and twenty-six Liberals.  

 

Clive

[kenf48]

12 hours ago, Scalyback said:

 

I would say further to that the Union and Labour party movement also having a strong bias against the military. 

 

 

Not really,pre-war it was irrelevant when war was declared the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party and many of its members supported the war.  There was an anti war, internationalist faction within the party but even they saw the conflict as a ‘just war’.

So many Welsh miners enlisted in the South Wales Borderers when war was declared that in December the officer Commanding Brecon Barracks was asked to stop accepting men from the Rhondda as it was becoming difficult to work the mines.  Nationally, by January 1915 217,000 miners had enlisted representing 20% of the workforce and 50% of those of military age. 

 

At the time coal coal miners were loosely organised through the Miners Federation of Great Britain by County or District Associatins.  At a local level the men were represented  by  Miners’ Agents.  As part of their duties many agents actively participated and assisted in the recruitment of volunteers in 1914.  Later, after conscription the Federation was actively engaged in the process.  In April 1918 there was another ‘rush to volunteer’ from miners in spite of their ‘protected’ status.

 

Ken

[Scalyback]

21 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

his sometimes led to the statistical description "Wales including Monmouthshire".   Together with Brecknockshire it formed the 24th Recruiting Area in 1914.  It did contain a substantial, mostly industrial population.    

 

Just checked Recruitment in Statistics 1914-1920, Monmouth is placed under Wales, with a given annotation. Pre-war did the military give this annotation? I wonder if it was a grey area before the war. No I'm English! 

As an aside my Aunt born in Newport 1947, claims to be English as born in Monmouthshire! 

 

Clive and Ken, I'm not claiming a full on almost distaste(?) for the army in the Valleys(east to west) but I think there was an undertone in the air should we say. As a background I'm looking at certain influences into recruitment in Merthyr pre war, war time and post war. I opened my big mouth at a meeting! 

One that does stand out for me is Keir Haride. He did not back down over the war and was at logger heads with Labour over the issue. How much did this filter down the local party? As I say something I'm sketching out at the moment so noting fully in place. 

 

Again thank you both for your time most informative.