have you Kipling and King?

[museumtom]

I have just bought a badge without seeing it but it got my curiosity going. It is described and a ww1 war raised unit from North Dublin. The badge is brass and has the letters NV for national Volunteers on it. The shop says it is listed in Kipling and King. If you have this book I would very much appreciate a scan of this badge> I have nere heard of this unit.......have you?

regards.

Tom Burnell

[Ken Lees]

Tom,

I have K&K. Is the K&K ref number included?

If not, tell me a little more about it and I'll have a browse.

Ken

[museumtom]

Hello Ken

Many thanks for your help.

As far as I know it is a brass badge with the letters NV on it, other than that I have no further information. Is there an Irish section or an index in K@K?

It says in the description"The IRISH regiment of the NORTHERN DUBLIN Volunteers.The banner over the top reads the Dublin regiment with NV beneath it." and "The NV stands for National Volunteers.The badges is in Kipling

and King.It was an Irish regt raised for the WW1 period.Always in

brass".

It sounds like a real cracker.

regards.

Tom.

[Grovetown]

Dear Tom

Following our FF conversation the other day, this badge sounds like its immediate and direct descendant. After Redmond committed the Irish Volunteers to serve overseas (in a speech on 20 September 1914 at Woodenbridge), there was a schism in the movement (plus ca change).

The breakaways (a mixture of home rulers and hard core republicans) claimed the title 'Irish Volunteers' for themselves, while the 'official' lot became known as the Irish National Volunteers - later abbreviated to the National Volunteers. The Dublin NV contingent amounted to just over 12,000 men.

The above is gleaned from a good book called Ireland's Unknown Soldiers, by Terence Denman. It's primarily a history of the 16th Div, but is very enlightening on these early days of the Irish contribution to the war effort.

Best wishes,

Grovetown.

[museumtom]

Hello Grovetown.

Does this mean that its not a British Army badge but an IV badge from the rebellion era?

regards.

Tom.

[Grovetown]

Yes and no Tom,

From my reading, I would put the position as being...

Obviously, being 1914, the rebellion hadn't really built up a head of steam at this point.

Redmond was keen for the British army to adopt the Volunteers as a single body of men as an Irish Brigade, in the same way the UVF had been/ was being; and the NV - one assumes - was a precursor to that hoped-for Brigade.

Although not a regiment in any literal sense, if one can treat UVF insignia of the period as being 'army' (as some seem to do), I suppose one could treat NV badges the same.

Redmond - as in much else - was to be disappointed, largely thanks to the resistance of Kitchener, and the willing men had to enlist in the normal way; although concessions were made to the extent of the formation of the 10th and 16th Divs, a la the 36th Div.

Rgds,

Grovetown.

[museumtom]

Many Thanks Grovetown.

'I see' said the blind man. When they enlisted did they use this as a cap badge?

Are they common badges@ I certainly have never seen one . Even though I bought it, I still dont know what it looks like. You dont have a picture of one do you?

regards.

Tom

[Grovetown]

I'm afraid you'll have to wait for one of the K&K boys for a picture, and as for wearing on enlistment, I couldn't say.

I reckon it would depend on local organisation whereby, say, if a company of NVs got together and presented themselves to the recruiter as a unified body, they might have worn them for the very early period until re-badged to their regiments.

I also have a feeling that later on the NVs that stayed behind also acted as a quasi-official kind of Home Guard akin to, and supporting, the VTCs. To that end, they were probably badged accordingly.

Rgds,

Grovetown.

[museumtom]

Thank you Grovetown, now I would love to know what K@K says.....

Regards.

Tom.

[Ken Lees]

Tom,

I can't find anything in K&K that fits the description.

If you can get a K&K reference number I'll try again.

Regards,

Ken

[museumtom]

Ken.

You are a gentleman,

Many thanks for trying anyway.

Regards.

Tom.

[DrB]

museumtom...like Ken, I tried both vols of KK and came up with nada. No mention of the unit either. Sorry. Must be a real rarity.

DrB

[museumtom]

Thank you DrB.

regards.

Tom.

[max7474]

Chaps

there is a photo of this badge in Wilkinson's Book which he included in error as a british army badge but amended in later amendments with the correct title. I have a copy and can scan the page if required. It is badge no 68 Dublin regt National Volunteers. I cannot see it in K&K and they say that the Volunteer Act of WW1 did not apply in Ireland and name a Belfast and Dublin unit as the exceptions but not the Dublin NV so I think they are fenians.

[museumtom]

Hello Max

I would very much appreciate a scan of this badge.

Many thanks.

Tom.

[Grovetown]

not the Dublin NV so I think they are fenians

While the National Volunteers may have had some gentler republicans in their number, they can’t be described as Fenians.

Irish modern political history is never that straightforward, but this period seems more complicated to me than usual. My perception is that:

The Irish Volunteers was a complete mix of constitutionalists, home rulers, fenians and all grades in-between. It was formed for a number of reasons:

1. To counter the increasingly organised para-military capability of the UVF in the north, and so;

2. Be able to act in the event of a full-blown civil war, and;

3. To demonstrate that the nation was capable of independent self-protection from external aggression.

It was never envisaged that it would serve overseas, and much less under the Crown. However, the advent of the war changed that and Redmond was keen that the IV make itself available for the conflict, and ideally as a homogenous body similar to earlier Irish Brigades or the ‘Wild Geese’. This he wanted for a number of reasons:

1. To earn home rule as a reward from Britain for supporting it in the struggle against Germany;

2. To demonstrate that the nation was capable of acting as an independent sovereign power on the world stage; and

3. To be able to call upon, in extremis, maybe 100,000 men trained and armed by the British Army if it did kick off at home.

To a good number of Irish Volunteers, this was unacceptable because they would not fight for the Crown and/or – at the wilder end – were happy to see Britain flayed by Germany. So there was a split: the fenians and others retained the title Irish Volunteers, while those sympathetic to Redmond’s goals and/or who were anti-Prussian militarism formed the National Volunteers.

In the end, many of the NV simply joined the army, albeit heading for either the 10th or 16th (Irish) Divisions; while the stay-at-homes, as suggested in a post above, acted as a kind of Home Guard. (Interestingly, it is also suggested that the 36th Div encouraged its Catholic element to switch to these divisions).

So, again, whatever the NV was or wasn’t, it wasn’t Fenian. And I would recommend the book mentioned above for anyone interested in this awkward period.

Best wishes.

Grovetown.