Guest cipiao Posted 17 January , 2005 Share Posted 17 January , 2005 Does anyone knows if the french had made plans for a war with Germany, others then regain Alsace-Loraine, I mean. What i want to know is if after regain the lost provinces ( plan XVII), the french did made projects to go on with the war inside Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 17 January , 2005 Share Posted 17 January , 2005 I think after plan 17c (?) the next plan was to basically make it up as they went along - and to some extent "making up as they went along" was the French plan anyway (hence the ever changing plan that resulted in 17c. Not sure this helps and you really need a French army expert, but no I dont think they had a plan for a prolonged war with Germany. I would be interested in other peoples views as my knowledge on this interesting aspect immediately prior to the outbreak of war is very limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 17 January , 2005 Share Posted 17 January , 2005 Yes Sir, Plan "H". Through Switserland no less: http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/layout/frames.ht...ields/planh.htm Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 That's fascinating stuff, Marco. Never seen it before. It opens a whole new vista of things that could have gone wrong! Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 There was of course an actual invasion of Germany in 1914, the French captured Mulhouse twice I believe and retained a small part of Alsace around Thann for the entire war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 There are more such plans!!! What about the plan of Belgium in 1918 to "liberate" Dutch Limburg and Zeeuws- Vlaanderen. Those 2 regions wanted to join Belgium and the anti-Dutch (because they helped the German army and the Kaiser) atmosphere supported that point of view. And this one! In 1918 - 1919 the Dutch army made invasion plans for Belgium. It would make Belgium a part of Holland again, except the south, that was planned to "give" to France as bribe... That would be a big massacre: Belgium: modern technologie + experienced soldiers, but "war sick" and internal political problems. Holland: Fresh motivated troops, but no experience and old equipment. These are facts, even published on the internet, but most are in Dutch, sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 There was of course an actual invasion of Germany in 1914, the French captured Mulhouse twice I believe and retained a small part of Alsace around Thann for the entire war. According to geopolitical boundaries of the time you are correct Paul. However a lesson I learned in college that the areas the French army was able to capture weren't really Germany. Being in Alsace the French really saw that as France anyway, at least sentimentally. Therefore there is a valid argument that the French never made it to Germany proper in the Battle of the Frontiers. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 Andy it was as German as Munich and had been legally since 1871, 43 years. You had to go through German customs to enter Alsace. The French desire that it be French territory did not make it so. No valid argument can be made that the French did not take German territory during the Battles of Frontiers, after all FRONTIERS are just that, and held a bit for the entire war. I have never read why Germans did not make more effort to retake that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 Hmm.... I think there was a big difference between the 'German-ness' of Alsace and Munich in 1914, even after 43 years. Of course there can be a lot of discussion either way because, by definition a border land is a cultural grey area. Kentucky, for example... is it north or is it south? However your example of Bavaria might have some merit since they joined Germany proper at the same time as Alsace and Lorraine. My impression is that this is a great debate that can have no clear answer. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 Culturally Andy, not sure on Alsace, you can still hear Alsatian spoken there, sounds more like German than French. Kentucky north or south isn't easy either. We sent about 3 times as many men to USA as CSA. We were 2d to Louisiana in # of blacks who served USA. Though we had far fewer than some stated almost all of Kentucky was in Union hands the whole war. After Perryville - maybe along with Shiloh the best preserved battlefield in the west - October 1862, Kentucky was not in serious play. Interesting, in a way Kentucky essentially joined the southern cause after the war entirely over resentment on race matters. Former CSA men did well in politics. Today we are more like the south in religion, education, income accent and food. Sorry to say politically too. But are we a southern state, I think not, we are a tweener or taint if you follow me. And this coming from one whose great grandfather served with both Forrest and JH Morgan, captured both times. Escaped from Fort Donelson with Forrest when it was surrendered but captured at Island # 10 in Mississippi R. last day of Shiloh well to the south, island near Tiptonville TN which is just south of KY border, then at Buffington Island Ohio in Morgan's great raid. He had taken the oath after captured 1st time so gave a false name 2d time, avoided execution. Stopped on a bluff above Greeen River near Columbia KY Tuesday to see where Morgan's men had a bad day on their way from TN to Indiana, Ohio. I may win the prize for hijack today but you baited me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 Culturally there is little doubt that Lorraine is and was French. The real reason why the Germans took it was to get a hold on the steel and coal industries. The Alsace and the Vosges are totally different as is obvious the moment you step in there. It is highly Germanic even today, but the people never say they are German, they say' Alsatian'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 I always thought of KY and WVA as tweeners. MD and MO are yankees in all but name. Actually since you bring up Forrest, I think his military philosophy, "Its who ever gets the furthest with the mostest." sums up Plan XVII to a 'T'. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jimmy Knacky Posted 27 January , 2005 Share Posted 27 January , 2005 Culturally Andy, not sure on Alsace, you can still hear Alsatian spoken there, sounds more like German than French. Is it Woof Woof or Grrr Grrr Serious though do the people from Alsace speak Alsation or Alsacion. Yi bugga man yi get reet educated on here (don't take offence healdav its not intended I did not know that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 28 January , 2005 Share Posted 28 January , 2005 I think it would depend on whether you were talking to someone from the Alsace or the rest of France. I think those from the Alsace would call themselves Alsaciens, but I'm really not sure (I just say, can't recall ever seeing it written down and I would understand whatever version, anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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