Guest Posted 8 November , 2018 Share Posted 8 November , 2018 I am searching for information about my great-grandfather James Stagg from Croydon, Surrey who I believe fought in the 17th Battalion Royal Fusiliers in WWI. He died in Cambrai, France on 30th Nov 1917. I would be interested to learn his cause of death and the events leading up to it, as well as any other details. Many thanks in advance if anyone can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 8 November , 2018 Share Posted 8 November , 2018 17th Battalion Royal Fusiliers, 30 November 1917. See Bourlon pages 216-218: https://archive.org/stream/royalfusiliersin00onei?textSrch=bourbon&btnSrch=#page/216/mode/2up JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 8 November , 2018 Share Posted 8 November , 2018 Hi J666, I didn't see a surviving service file for James, so it may have been one of the many lost as the result of a fire during WW2. His medal roll record shows that he served overseas with the 17th Battalion in France/Flanders 2.12.1916, until his death. The 17th Battalion arrived in France in November 1915, so it seems that James arrived as a reinforcement. The amount of War Gratuity shown as paid in his Soldiers' Effects record is indicative of 12, or less, months overall service. His Soldiers' Died record says that James enlisted in Croydon. James served under the number of G/42746. immediately under him on the medal roll there is a G/42747 Sawyer who is also recorded as a 17th Bn man arriving in active theatre (France/Flanders) on the same date of 2.12.1916. He does have surviving service papers which show: 8.8.1916 - mobilised from the Army Reserve 8.8.1916 - posted to the 6th (Reserve) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers 1.12.1916 - sent to the British Expeditionary Force 2.2.1916 - posted to the 17th Battalion It's a bit dangerous to draw inferences on a mans' service based on the service file of just one other man, but I think that James may well have followed the same path. Further 'near number' sampling may help. The war diary for the 17th Battalion is here at the National Archives (£3.50), and here on Ancestry. If you wanted to download a copy it's far easier to get it from TNA as you'd get the whole thing as a single continuous pdf file - on Ancestry you gave to download each page as single jpeg images. For the time of his death the 5 Infantry Brigade HQ diary, and 2 Division HQ (General Staff) diary will probably (I haven't looked) augment and add context to the Battalion diary, as they often contain 'extras' such as orders. maps, and reports on operations. None are likely to mention James by name though. The National Archives and Ancestry links are: Brigade - here, and here Division - here and here If you come across any map references, there is help on how to read them here. There is good advice on how to research a soldier here. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 8 November , 2018 Share Posted 8 November , 2018 Hi J666 The 17th Battalion (Empire) Royal Fusiliers City of London Regiment were fighting near Bourlon Wood in and around Kangaroo Trench. At this time they were part of 99th Infantry Brigade 2nd Division.On the day you say your relative was killed his battalion was relieved by my Great Uncles battalion the 24th Battalion (2nd Sportsmen) Royal Fusiliers.The 17th Battalion lost 11 Officers and a 167 other ranks including your relative.The war diary doesn't mention any fighting on the 30/11/1917,so i would suggest that he actually became a casualty the day before where they were in action.Try and have a look at the War diary on Ancestry.If I can be of help please just ask. Kind Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 8 November , 2018 Share Posted 8 November , 2018 Hi, 13 minutes ago, andrew pugh said: At this time they were part of 99th Infantry Brigade 2nd Division I'm confused. The 5 Infantry Brigade HQ diary (previously linked) entry for 30th November shows Image source: Ancestry.co.uk It does though appear to a bit strange that in the Brigade diary the 'author' felt it necessary to record them as "5th Inf. Bde.". Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 9 November , 2018 Share Posted 9 November , 2018 Thank you all so much for taking the time to help and for the advice and links. As suggested, I am currently looking over the war diary on Ancestry to see what I can find out and trying to make sense of it all. Kind regards, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 9 November , 2018 Share Posted 9 November , 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, andrew pugh said: Hi J666 The 17th Battalion (Empire) Royal Fusiliers City of London Regiment were fighting near Bourlon Wood in and around Kangaroo Trench. At this time they were part of 99th Infantry Brigade 2nd Division.On the day you say your relative was killed his battalion was relieved by my Great Uncles battalion the 24th Battalion (2nd Sportsmen) Royal Fusiliers.The 17th Battalion lost 11 Officers and a 167 other ranks including your relative.The war diary doesn't mention any fighting on the 30/11/1917,so i would suggest that he actually became a casualty the day before where they were in action.Try and have a look at the War diary on Ancestry.If I can be of help please just ask. Kind Regards Andy Yes it does: See also the 'Extracts from Note Book of Br. Gen. S V P Weston' in the pages of the War Diary following the above two. The 17th Battalion was relieved by the 24th late in the evening of 30 November. JP Edited 9 November , 2018 by helpjpl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 9 November , 2018 Share Posted 9 November , 2018 Hi JP OOP's Sorry I forgot to look at the following page. Sorry for the miss-information Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 9 November , 2018 Share Posted 9 November , 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, andrew pugh said: Hi JP OOP's Sorry I forgot to look at the following page. Sorry for the miss-information Regards Andy Captain Walter Napleton Stone, attached 17th Battalion, was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross for his action on 30 November 1917: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1757119/stone,-walter-napleton/ #2: 17th Battalion Royal Fusiliers, 30 November 1917. See Bourlon pages 216-218: https://archive.org/stream/royalfusiliersin00onei?textSrch=bourbon&btnSrch=#page/216/mode/2up JP Edited 9 November , 2018 by helpjpl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 18 March , 2020 Share Posted 18 March , 2020 (edited) My Grandfather, William Charles Muttitt, MM, (Private PS/11374) from The Fen, Blythburgh, Suffolk, was in the 17th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers and was killed on 8th December 1917. He is remembered on the Arras Memorial, Pas de Calais, France. I know he was in a battle on 30th November 1917 east of Mouevres but I would like to be able to find out exactly where he was killed on 8th December 1917 and events leading up to his death if it is possible. Edited 18 March , 2020 by Guest Needed to update information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 19 March , 2020 Share Posted 19 March , 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Marian Proctor said: I know he was in a battle on 30th November 1917 east of Mouevres but I would like to be able to find out exactly where he was killed on 8th December 1917 and events leading up to his death if it is possible. Hi and welcome to the forum. Copies of both the Battalion War Diary, and the Brigade War Diary, (5th) should be available on Ancestry, if you subscribe, or can be downloaded for a small fee from the National Archive. It's very unlikely they will mention your grandfather by name, but the Brigade War Diary in particular may have maps that will make it easier to track down where he was in action over those last few days. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-war-diaries-1914-1922/ To get you started I've attached an extract from page 219 of The Royal Fusiliers in the Great War by H.C. O'Neill, which gives a summary of what they were uo to in the aftermath of the German Counter-attack in the Battle of Cambrai. Hope that helps, Peter Edited 19 March , 2020 by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 19 March , 2020 Share Posted 19 March , 2020 (edited) Hi Marian and welcome to the forum! You can download free of charge the Royal Fusiliers in the Great War. Pages 218 and 219 cover your dates. Below is a November 7th trench map and you can see at the very top the Bapaume-Cambrai Road. For full details click the image to enlarge it. Graincourt is at the right hand side and I presume the infiltration took place somewhere above the word 'Graincourt' itself. This is the view from the canal at Lock 7 towards Graincourt, looking towards the German approach. On the bottom left you can see Lock No 7 and how peaceful it looks today. The posts 500 yards forward of the line are presumably the dots due east of Lock 7. Credits: Gazetteer of the Western Front, Google Street View, tMapper Preview and National Library of Scotland. Edited 19 March , 2020 by WhiteStarLine Oops, forgot to credit Google Street View Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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