Presentation of Military Cross

[WD61JG]

Hello,

 

I have just discovered a September 1918 newspaper clipping (from the Daily Sketch) with a photo of two relatives leaving Buckingham Palace, one of them having been awarded a M.C. and bar and the other an 'Italian Decoration'.

 

A couple of questions, would it have been King George V who presented the medals and if so why would he be presenting an Italian medal (which was the Italian War Cross), i.e. a foreign countries medal.

 

The M.C. and bar was presented to William McIndoe and the Italian War Cross to Jean McKersie.

 

Thank you.

[keithmroberts]

I suspect that most of the medals would be presented by the King, but there may of course have been occasions when he was represented by for example the Prince of Wales.

 

I don't know about the Italian medal, but there was probably an agreement for the medals to be given out by royalty.

 

 I do know from his son-in-law,  that  the one relative of mine to receive an MC did receive it from the king at Buck House,

 

Keith

[ForeignGong]

2 hours ago, WD61JG said:

Hello,

 

I have just discovered a September 1918 newspaper clipping (from the Daily Sketch) with a photo of two relatives leaving Buckingham Palace, one of them having been awarded a M.C. and bar and the other an 'Italian Decoration'.

 

A couple of questions, would it have been King George V who presented the medals and if so why would he be presenting an Italian medal (which was the Italian War Cross), i.e. a foreign countries medal.

 

The M.C. and bar was presented to William McIndoe and the Italian War Cross to Jean McKersie.

 

Thank you.

Hi WD61JG

The only thing I can find on Jean McKersie is this

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205287591

 

 

[rflory]

The king did personally present a large number of MC at Buckingham Palace and he also presented some in the field, but examination of the Military Cross Cards at TNA reveals that a large number of MCs were sent by registered mail to the recipient or his next of kin. 

[HarryBrook]

The Court Circular published in The Times of Thursday September 19 1918 began:-

"Windsor Castle Sept. 19

The King, attended by the Gentlemen in Waiting, went to London this morning.

His Majesty held an investiture in the Quadrangle of Buckingham Palace."

The recipients of decorations, the Victoria Cross, M.C., R.R.C., and Albert Medal, etc. were listed. Captain William McIndoe of the Royal Scots Fusiliers was amongst those named in the report. There was no list of any Foreign decorations presented. Perhaps Jean McKersie attended as the guest/supporter of William McIndoe. 

The band of the Irish Guards provided musical accompaniment.

 

Was it not the case that the King only gave his permission for a Foreign decoration to be received and worn?

 

[ForeignGong]

2 hours ago, HarryBrook said:

The Court Circular published in The Times of Thursday September 19 1918 began:-

"Windsor Castle Sept. 19

The King, attended by the Gentlemen in Waiting, went to London this morning.

His Majesty held an investiture in the Quadrangle of Buckingham Palace."

The recipients of decorations, the Victoria Cross, M.C., R.R.C., and Albert Medal, etc. were listed. Captain William McIndoe of the Royal Scots Fusiliers was amongst those named in the report. There was no list of any Foreign decorations presented. Perhaps Jean McKersie attended as the guest/supporter of William McIndoe. 

The band of the Irish Guards provided musical accompaniment.

 

Was it not the case that the King only gave his permission for a Foreign decoration to be received and worn? 

 

Approval was given to societies such as the Red Cross, St John, Scottish Women's Hospital and others, to accept and wear without having to gain approval from the War Office. Which meant that there are no LG's for these awards. This was a self governing system and only a small amount even have a Foreign Office file. I have not been able to find a reference for her award other than the first Post above and now yours.

I found a photo of a motorised field kitchen with Jean McKersie on the IWM site, which I posted above. But that was all.

 

Peter

[m0rris]

I realise this probably speaks for itself but would appreciate further detail behind "Presented with ribbons by GOC I Corps" while in the field. This is for an MC presented as a King's birthday honour June 1917. Thanks.

[ForeignGong]

44 minutes ago, m0rris said:

I realise this probably speaks for itself but would appreciate further detail behind "Presented with ribbons by GOC I Corps" while in the field. This is for an MC presented as a King's birthday honour June 1917. Thanks.

My understanding is that soldiers were presented with ribbons as soon as awards were announced and had there medals/decorations presented to them usually when they arrived back in UK.

[m0rris]

Thank you. The recipient was killed 5 months later so I'm not sure if he ever received it fully although we have the medal now. Would GOC I Corps refer to Brig Gen Henry Sinclair Horne in terms of an artillery man?

[Terry_Reeves]

35 minutes ago, m0rris said:

Thank you. The recipient was killed 5 months later so I'm not sure if he ever received it fully although we have the medal now. Would GOC I Corps refer to Brig Gen Henry Sinclair Horne in terms of an artillery man?

M0rris, post his name, there is a possibility that I might be able to help.

 

TR

[m0rris]

Many thanks Terry. It's Capt Robert Parry Morris 1/1st Welsh Heavy Batter RGA. That's him in my photo profile. I have his MC card from the TNA which has under "remarks: sent 24/4/18" which I believe implies that the family received the medal after his death in Oct 17. The unit diary has the line "presented with ribbons" so I am curious to know who the GOC was at the time and about the formality of the occasion.

Edited 2 November , 2018 by m0rris
update

[clk]

Hi m0rris,

 

It looks like the medal was posted out.

 

Image source: The National Archives - file WO 389/19

 

Regards

Chris

[Terry_Reeves]

Sorry, he is not on my list. I do have a document  which lists the disposal of MC awards to officers who were killed before receiving the medal, this also includes the presentation of DCMs to men who were commissioned and killed before presentation and also a number of DSO awards. I do know that the list is not complete.

 

The following is a list of methods of receipt. I understand that the choice, in the appropriate cases, was a matter for the family:

 

1. By registered post, to either the next of kin or to another family member or his legal representative. 

2. Handed to next of kin ( or another family member) at the War Office. 

3. By presentation at Buckingham Palace to next of kin or other family member. This was not necessarily by the King.

4. By the Quarter Master General (Home Forces) for public presentation. These were normally presented at the man's home town or nearby, by a senior military officer or Lord Lieutenant.

5. By the Assistant Military Secretary at the War Office (possibly the same as 2 above.)

6. By the QMG to the Colonial Office for overseas presentations.

 

TR

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 November , 2018 by Terry_Reeves

[m0rris]

Many thanks Terry and Chris. That confirms my thoughts that it was posted to the family after his death. Is the presentation likely to have been a formal occasion away from the line with men from other units receiving awards at the same time? Two ORs from his battery also received MMs on the same day. I'll keep digging around and see if I can find out who the GOC I Corps was at the time.

[HarryBrook]

The G.O.C. 1 Corps from 19 February 1917 to 18 September 1918, and again from 4 October 1918, was Lt.-Gen. Arthur Edward Aveling Holland.

[JulianR]

My feeling is that the ribbons would have been presented formally, as GOC 1 Corps is the presenting officer, and it would have been done at a parade with a number of units, so that all concerned knew that their efforts were appreciated.  I know of a railway sapper in Salonika being sent down to be presented with his MSM ribbon.

 

Julian