Butte de Warlencourt sold?

[nigelcave]

Well, I would have thought that it has changed quite considerably since the days of an eight page or so, duplicated Stand To! (or so it seemed) and a couple of A4 sheets for a Bulletin. Publications are professional, there is a website which seems to me to have improved very considerably and evolves, there is an e-newsletter, there has been involvement in educational programmes and the centenary etc etc. I am not altogether sure what a 'new direction' would be, quite frankly; except that the Centenary has now passed and so there will doubtless be a change in emphasis in some form.

 

From what I can understand of the legal ins and outs, there seems to be no way that anyone would wish to hold the position of a WFA trustee with this 'cloud of unknowing'. Meanwhile I am very grateful to anyone who volunteers to perform such a function for a charity of whatever type.

 

 

[Ken Lees]

I wonder how the management of the Lochnagar crater, with thousands of visitors every week is effectively organised, compared to the Butte with its handful of visitors. 

[mva]

12 minutes ago, Ken Lees said:

I wonder how the management of the Lochnagar crater, with thousands of visitors every week is effectively organised, compared to the Butte with its handful of visitors. 

so do I !

[nigelcave]

I wonder whether there is a French Association registered for the Crater?

 

A few reasons, I suspect.

 

1. It is an exceptionally large hole in the ground, created by a very large mine and has a 'wow' factor. The Butte is ??a Gallo-Roman burial mound or ... and events there fall into that 'unfashionable' period at the end of the Somme, even if the Line more or less stopped there at the end of the Battle and the top of it offers some excellent views, particularly to the west.

 

2. It is the product of an event on 1 July 1916, the magic date.

 

3. It is right on the tourist 'Somme Highway': The Newfoundland Memorial, (the Sunken Road, maybe), the Ulster Tower, Thiepval, Lochnagar Crater (and a conveniently short visiting time - out of coach, stand on edge, admire, turn around and back on the coach). Once you have those covered, then you have time for maybe one or two others - Fricourt German Cemetery, Mansell Copse does well and possibly Delville Wood. Time to go back to base.

 

4. It is a single focus Association - i.e. just the maintenance (and development?) of the Crater.

 

5. Unlike the Butte, I think either the Historial or the Region would take on the Crater if that were necessary. The latter seems to have pumped enough money into it over the last few years (i.e. the road infrastructure).

[SteveMarsdin]

As an aside, I was just looking through the WFA Constitution to try and find out exactly who forms the Executive Committee (I don't think it's particularly obvious from the correspondence and website which lists the Trustee roles) when I noticed this rule:

 

"Subject to the approval of the Executive Committee, free veteran membership of the Association shall be open to any person who served in the Forces during the period 4th August 1914 to 11th November 1918 and free membership shall also include the spouse of the veteran member. Such veteran members shall each be entitled to hold elected office of the Association and each may vote at any general meeting of the Association and participate in a postal ballot."

 

The constitution was updated in 2017 !

[keithmroberts]

My impression was that the Lochnagar Crater was still owned by the chap who purchased it, or has he transferred ownership to the friends association?

[Heid the Ba]

44 minutes ago, SteveMarsdin said:

As an aside, I was just looking through the WFA Constitution to try and find out exactly who forms the Executive Committee (I don't think it's particularly obvious from the correspondence and website which lists the Trustee roles) when I noticed this rule:

 

"Subject to the approval of the Executive Committee, free veteran membership of the Association shall be open to any person who served in the Forces during the period 4th August 1914 to 11th November 1918 and free membership shall also include the spouse of the veteran member. Such veteran members shall each be entitled to hold elected office of the Association and each may vote at any general meeting of the Association and participate in a postal ballot."

 

The constitution was updated in 2017 !

Many men have much younger wives, the last American Civil War widow only died a decade or so ago.

11 hours ago, Bernard_Lewis said:

Yes, it dropped on my mat today. I can't understand why, 20 years after the purchase, it has suddenly become a poisoned legal chalice. That said, I can understand the trustees deciding the hassle isn't worth the effort of EC membership. As I read it, they're all packing in at/before the AGM?

I suspect that it was only recently realised what the position was.  Trusts tend to bumble along with everyone "knowing" the position until something happens and then the true position emerges.

[nigelcave]

23 minutes ago, keithmroberts said:

My impression was that the Lochnagar Crater was still owned by the chap who purchased it, or has he transferred ownership to the friends association?

So think I - but I just do not know. There is an awful lot of investment by state agencies in the site (or at least the surrounds) to run the risk of it being sold by the owner, if he is the sole proprietor, and its fate decided on the whim of whoever might buy it.

 

The Bulletin lists the Committee posts that are 'trustee' and those which are not: ten of the former (elected) and seven who are not and who are appointed (as of a Bulletin I happened to have handy, from July 2015)

 

As regards trustes in the WFA, there are a good number of positions in the Committee that are non-trustee ones; the distinction came about many years ago, possibly at the time that the Butte was purchased. I imagine that the situation became more urgent in the light of the issues highlighted in the recent notices from the EC; possibly if they felt they were 'covered' for liability then the site would muddle along. IIRC John Giles, who was very keen to 'save' the Butte desired to keep it more or less as was; but then he was a battlefield tourer of the early 60s (or even earlier) and those of us who were around then might appreciate more just how 'quiet' the Somme was then: one had the feeling (or at least I did) of being an explorer in a sleeping land.

[keithmroberts]

The crater appears from the website to be still the personal property of Richard Dunning with the Association set up to support and maintain the crater. See snip from the website. I'm sure that it isn't because he sees it as a valuable personal asset, but because it must seem the best way to manage ownership in France.

[mva]

1 hour ago, keithmroberts said:

My impression was that the Lochnagar Crater was still owned by the chap who purchased it, or has he transferred ownership to the friends association?

from the website : https://lochnagarcrater.org/about/

• The Lochnagar Crater has been privately owned since 1978 by Richard Dunning MBE ............ BUT :
• The Lochnagar Crater Foundation. Registered charity number 1172355   

difficult for me (French) to understand : privately owned, but charity ???

Edited 16 November , 2018 by mva

[Heid the Ba]

It looks like the plan is that eventually the charity will own the crater.  How this can be squared with the problems the WFA has had might be an issue.

 

https://lochnagarcrater.org/news/an-update-on-the-new-charity/

 

[SiegeGunner]

Whatever the status of Lochnagar, one hopes that the WFA has sought (or will seek) the advice and assistance of Richard Dunning, who I believe is a WFA member.

[mva]

by the way, there is another 'story' going on : Hawthorn Ridge Crater Association : French authorities involved (the mairie bought the land - but financial problems with "Pays du Coquelicot"). Article from local newspaper 8th Nov 2018 - pdf in PM if you want

No web site, but a twitter account : https://twitter.com/hawthornridgeca?lang=fr

and this : http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/latest-news/march-2018/the-formation-of-the-hawthorn-ridge-crater-association/  (names of the 2 British involved at the bottom)

here, too : http://www.il-y-a-100-ans.fr/somme/les-benevoles-aux-petits-soins-de-l-hawthorn-ridge-crater-de-beaumont-hamel-video-n6657#.W-7Z0WaNzDc

Edited 16 November , 2018 by mva

[David Filsell]

Martin,

I take it that you will be looking for nomination as a trustee at the AGM to correct the dissatisfaction which you claim exists between its members, its branches, supporters and head office, and of course 'embrace the change' you seem to judge necessary. Certainly no such dissatisfaction is apparent to me within the ever growing Surrey branch or amongst any members with whom I am in regular contact.

 

Somehow I'm suspect you will not be seeking nomination to make the changes you judge so important within an organisation which has sought understandably, if ineptly, to safeguard the Association and its trustees in a situation they inherited because of the (largely emotionally induced) misjudgement made in taking on the BdW in the first place. It was then and is now a Butte to far.

 

Fortunately election/re-election will take place at the AGM, by members who are aware standards of management and high levels of commitment within the current trustees and not by wiseacres on the Great War Forum.

 

Again, for transparency, I make my post as Reviews Editor, Stand To! and as a former trustee clear. Again I underline my view that a decision to pass the complicated matter of ownership and its frightening possible consequence over, and the cost of ownership, to others was a sound decision by respected and highly efficient group of trustees simply - even if mishandled in its announcement - does not deserve the casual, easy and in my opinion inacurate generalised criticism you continue to heap upon it.

Regards

David 

 

Edited 16 November , 2018 by David Filsell

[Gareth Davies]

In order to build on the theme of transparency, are you remunerated for the post of Reviews Editor David? 

[David Filsell]

Not sure af the relevance of the question.

But, A clever question certainly - since my answer might be seen to indicate self interest and question my motives in questioning your overstated views?  

However, since you ask for transparency, and although frankly it is none of your damned business whatsoever - other, of course, than overtly seeking to question my motives in responding to what I consider unhelpful, unsupported criticism -  as WFA accounts will show, I am remunerated (at heavily discounted rate) for my services as Book Reviews Editor, Stand To. I am also remunerated by  other all clients who wish to engage my services. They too sometimes - like all of us - get things wrong sometimes.

I hope this clarifies my situation sufficiently transparently.  

i have given my views. I think further comment/question of my motives pointless in questioning you pointless.

 

 

[johnboy]

David your posts as far as I have seen have been about the original questioni and not book reviewing,, So the question asking if you get paid is irrelevant

[Gareth Davies]

9 hours ago, David Filsell said:

Not sure af the relevance of the question.

But, A clever question certainly - since my answer might be seen to indicate self interest and question my motives in questioning your overstated views?  

However, since you ask for transparency, and although frankly it is none of your damned business whatsoever - other, of course, than overtly seeking to question my motives in responding to what I consider unhelpful, unsupported criticism -  as WFA accounts will show, I am remunerated (at heavily discounted rate) for my services as Book Reviews Editor, Stand To. I am also remunerated by  other all clients who wish to engage my services. They too sometimes - like all of us - get things wrong sometimes.

I hope this clarifies my situation sufficiently transparently.  

i have given my views. I think further comment/question of my motives pointless in questioning you pointless.

 

 

 

The relevance is transparency David. 

 

Where have I "overstated" any views? 

[mandy hall]

Very sparky on Twitter again last night.

 

Mandy

[Bernard_Lewis]

For an organisation with the responsibilities of a charity and 6,000 members each paying £30 a year, the handling of this issue has been a mess from the off.

 

Very sad but members deserve better.

 

Bernard

[Ken Lees]

On 16/11/2018 at 10:06, nigelcave said:

 

5. Unlike the Butte, I think either the Historial or the Region would take on the Crater if that were necessary. The latter seems to have pumped enough money into it over the last few years (i.e. the road infrastructure).

 

I doubt that. It was a playground for the locals before Richard Dunning bought it and would have been used for landfill by now if it wasn't for Richard's intervention. 

[nigelcave]

I am not saying when he bought it, or even when there were problems, such as you mention. But the reality now is that I think they probably would take it on if Richard for whatever reason, decided to move on. After all, the Conseil General (I assume, perhaps dangerously) has widened the road, improved the parking and provided a turn around area for coaches in the last few years. So, for sure, Richard saved it (I am old enough to remember when Y Sap still 'was' before it got filled in); and I think it is most unlikely that the powers-that-be would just let it be filled in if its future became uncertain post-Richard (and long may he live!). They just have too much invested in it, whilst they have zero invested in the Butte.

[David Filsell]

Mr D 

I have concluded that you are simply a maker of mischief. However, you now have my transparent  answer - while my question about your desire to take the WFA onward and upward by standing for election as trustee remain unanswered.

As they say in so many movies, "enough already", our banter is ended.

 

Mr L,

I appears from the content of letter to all WFA members the trustees fully recognise that things could/should have been better handled, and I fully agree. Nevertheless,  I do judge their very speedy reaction to correct rather more impressive than that of many other charities which have dug a pit for themselves.

Edited 19 November , 2018 by David Filsell

[Gareth Davies]

In what way am I making mischief? I don't get paid by the WFA, you do. It may not have any bearing on your views but I don't see how asking about it is making mischief.  As for it not being any of my business I disagree.  Surely as a WFA member it is very much my business?  As for me not answering your questions, I must admit that I can't see any questions from you about my desires to take the WFA onward and upward.  In post #142, which was addressed to Martin, you asked about his involvement in the future of the WFA but for the life of me I can't see where you have asked me.  As it happens I have made it very clear to a number of people to a number of people, long before you typed post #142, that I am very prepared to get involved with the WFA's future.

 

Where were my views overstated?

[Muerrisch]

I am a WFA member with a very low membership number. I pay my subs and occasionally write articles for ST! of dubious merit and in defiance of my wife [who says I should know better].

Thus I am saddened by the BdW episode. I am not surprised however. Trustees in general are, and always were, batting on a sticky wicket. To continue the analogy, they are amateurs surrounded by predatory professionals. My own experience as a Trustee [not WFA] and realisation of the personal financial risk caused me to resign 10 years ago.

The amateurism of the WFA EC regarding the sale of BdW is, I believe, extreme and has been rightly condemned. These things happen.

But consider this: it is the membership that provides those who stand for office, or not; it is the membership that elects the officers.

The failure is a collective one.

Do I have an answer you may ask?

Only to suggest that the critics put up or shut up "you cannot steer the ship from the shore", and wish the new leaders good judgement and fortune for future management of an  Association that has done so much good from such humble beginnings.