Butte de Warlencourt sold?

[Guest]

*Gives up*

Edited 19 November , 2018 by Guest

[Gareth Davies]

2 minutes ago, MattB said:

I’m a relatively new member of the WFA, joining within the last five years. As someone who works in communications with an element of public engagement, I agree that the communications on this issue has been very poor. I hope that there is now an opportunity for renewal.

 

I joined the WFA because after having tried to get the book on my local war memorial, discovered that one didn’t exist and so started researching. After putting an appeal in the local paper, a WFA member contacted me and suggested I come along to meetings. For me, the talks are invaluable. I’ve listened to and met some terrific speakers. I quite like the regular emails and elements of the publications. I’d also agree that volunteers seldom get the thanks they deserve but people can be swift to jump in when things go wrong. The medal cards and pension records are examples of good work.

 

It does feel that the WFA missed an opportunity for outreach during recent years. At 45, I am one of, if not the, youngest at my branch. It’s a pretty sedate set up, full of decent and interested people but there was no real welcome to me and no programme of outreach that I’m aware of. WFA branches could - I’m sure some are -be very engaged in their local communities. It’s disappointing to see membership has dropped.

 

I have occasionally felt too an attitude of being a newcomer ‘we’ve been doing this for 30 years son’. Whilst that’s more than admirable, one thing that’s disappointed me from some members and some perhaps non members on social media around the centenary, is an incredibly snooty attitude to new researchers, family tree researchers and ‘inaopropriate’ poppy displays and acts of remembrance. If the WFA and the history community generally, isn’t focused on and thrilled about, increasing public engagement, then it needs to look hard at itself.

 

Have I got everything right myself? God, no! Have some poppy displays been garish and over the top? Yes. But I’d always prefer a hand up offered to a person newly engaged than anything else.

 

I’ll continue to support my branch and see what happens.

 

I think that's the understatement of the centenary period. 

[Muerrisch]

Interesting .......Matt B's contribution lives on only as a quotation.

 

I think it was very pertinent and useful.

[Gareth Davies]

Yes it was.

[David Filsell]

Interesting to note on the Forum that the 'failing' WFA is opening a new branch!

 

[Hyacinth1326]

In this Centenary year, given the scale of interest in the War, the WFA ought to be opening up dozens of branches nationwide.  I say this as someone who was just an ordinary member. Yes, my membership lapsed but I still feel entitled to my say. Unlike the great and the good on this thread, nobody ever asked me to write or review anything,  (but I came in handy when it came to putting a few quid into the coffers). I contributed my little bit towards buying the Butte and attended the inauguration. Now I feel more than a little dismayed by the antics of this circus.

 I do hope this is a watershed moment but to me it has the whiff of end of days.

Edited 6 December , 2018 by Hyacinth1326

[David Filsell]

Neither the WFA nor any organisation  can just open up new branches ad hoc. There has to be a local interest first and people, volunteers, willing to put in the hard yards to get  branch  running. And they are hard yards I can assure you, although one new branch has just opened up.

Equally nobody asked me to write for Stand To! - like others simply I submitted articles for editorial consideration (as is common publishing practice for unestablished writers). Equally I made the effort to ask if I could be considered as a book reviewer. The answer is simple, become unlapsed, start a branch, submit an article or send the reviews editor details of your particular interest/expertise and request a book for review. Just a thought or two for your consideration.

[Hyacinth1326]

I take your points on board. And you are most certainly right about pitching in to do my bit.  For what it is worth, right or wrong I believe all concerned did what they thought was best to secure the future of the Butte.  Cataclysmic fissures have opened up, rather rift valleys, have opened up within the WFA hierarchy and I am at a loss to see how these chasms may be bridged for the good of all. PS I am a published author but I don't really do reviews.

[keithmroberts]

I can't see how this will end, but my intent is to remain a member and supporter of the WFA whoever is elected in April.  I'm sure some things can be better, no organisation is incapable of improvement, but I remain concerned that some critics  (yes I am a critic), seem unable to respect the commitment and effort made by well intentioned and hard working volunteers. Some of you will have noticed for example David Tattersfield's request elsewhere in the GWF for volunteers to help with testing the WFA access to the pension documents on Fold 3. I wonder just how many hours he has given over recent years to get things this far.

 

For those who want some changes that go beyond personalities, I would say that the AGM will be quite soon enough. I hope that the working groups being set up will prove sufficiently open and constructive to help the WFA forward from the current confrontations. Regrettably I have a clash of dates that will prevent my attendance at the AGM; that is unfortunate but my absence will not reflect a lack of concern for the future, or a lack of respect for those more closely involved.

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

[healdav]

27 minutes ago, keithmroberts said:

I can't see how this will end, but my intent is to remain a member and supporter of the WFA whoever is elected in April.  I'm sure some things can be better, no organisation is incapable of improvement, but I remain concerned that some critics  (yes I am a critic), seem unable to respect the commitment and effort made by well intentioned and hard working volunteers. Some of you will have noticed for example David Tattersfield's request elsewhere in the GWF for volunteers to help with testing the WFA access to the pension documents on Fold 3. I wonder just how many hours he has given over recent years to get things this far.

 

For those who want some changes that go beyond personalities, I would say that the AGM will be quite soon enough. I hope that the working groups being set up will prove sufficiently open and constructive to help the WFA forward from the current confrontations. Regrettably I have a clash of dates that will prevent my attendance at the AGM; that is unfortunate but my absence will not reflect a lack of concern for the future, or a lack of respect for those more closely involved.

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking as a member who didn't know that the WFA had bought the Butte, has no idea where it is or what it was.............................................

My interests are Verdun and east (I live there).

[towisuk]

On 19/11/2018 at 11:53, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Shocking

I think it's like many things...people with direct associations to WW1 through parents and elderly family are gradually dying out. How many of our contributors heard stories from relatives about family members that had been through the war, how many of the medals issued to the recipients still reside in family hands and not "auctioned off" to the highest bidder. Time stands still for no man and with it memories fade, and no amount of written information has the same effect as personal contact with the past.

So please don't blame the WFA for fall in membership....time has taken its toll, I only have to look round at our excellent WFA branch lectures to see that 90% of people present can be labeled as "elderly"...certainly retired...

So if anyone has come up with a way of defeating the lapse of membership due to time...let him stand up and be counted...

 

regards

Tom

Edited 10 December , 2018 by towisuk

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, towisuk said:

I think it's like many things...people with direct associations to WW1 through parents and elderly family are gradually dying out. How many of our contributors heard stories from relatives about family members that had been through the war, how many of the medals issued to the recipients still reside in family hands and not "auctioned off" to the highest bidder. Time stands still for no man and with it memories fade, and no amount of written information has the same effect as personal contact with the past.

So please don't blame the WFA for fall in membership....time has taken its toll, I only have to look round at our excellent WFA branch lectures to see that 90% of people present can be labeled as "elderly"...certainly retired...

So if anyone has come up with a way of defeating the lapse of membership due to time...let him stand up and be counted...

 

regards

Tom

 

I am not convinced. The Victorian Wars Forum seems a steady enough ship, and even the Napoleonic when last visited. Neither are fee-paying so may not be good examples of course.

There is another way of looking at the matter, from the bottom up: the WFA is not recruiting enough younger members. If the Great War is not suficiently interesting as a stand-alone subject, separate from its participants and their immediate kin, it does not deserve special consideration. There is, of course, a staggering literature extant, added to vastly recently. That would remain as a rump, a very large footnote to history.

[chaz]

Talking to a friend today, he said they had been to France enough times, they were now visiting Poland for war interest. Firstly, didn't know he was that interested in military activities, secondly , he is a self employed double glazing installer and under 50 years old so how much of France has he Seen?

[nigelcave]

Interest in military history covers so many areas of particular interest that I am not surprised by this at all. Some of us on this Forum are interested in, for example, one or more of rusty bits of metal, military fortifications, particular engagements/battles, types of commemoration, formations, units, personalities, logistics, railways, social make-up, topography, tactical evolution, equipment and its evolution, medical ... You get the idea. So he may well have just seen what he wants to see of his particular interest in France and moved on. Personally I find it very hard to think that I shall ever come to a point of 'enough', even in a small area like the Somme; but then I have a very concentrated interest in WWI; tho' I must admit it does branch out and I would happily take in other (generally military) events along with other interests (e.g. matters ecclesiastical in all their forms, notably architectural).

 

So I can see why he might say that. And it takes you to another country and another experience. I was fortunate in my youth that my father's job took him all over the place so I could visit, e.g. Mohacs, or White Mountain/Bila Hora or Austerlitz/Slakov or Terezienstadt or Overloon or Tanga. France and Belgium (and possibly Italy) more than suffice for me now.

 

 

[towisuk]

"There is another way of looking at the matter, from the bottom up: the WFA is not recruiting enough younger members"

 

And how would you do this..???   we have WFA branches across Britain, and if the younger generation want to do something else rather to attend meetings, lectures and trips to the battlefields what are you going to do??? 

I have been the treasurer of another club with a totally different hobby for 38 years, and I have noticed the fall in membership even although we do exhibitions, educational courses and are well advertised on the web....  Times change, nothing is forever, and no amount of "wishful thinking" will change that..!!

regards

Tom

[nigelcave]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I am not convinced. The Victorian Wars Forum seems a steady enough ship, and even the Napoleonic when last visited. Neither are fee-paying so may not be good examples of course.

There is another way of looking at the matter, from the bottom up: the WFA is not recruiting enough younger members. If the Great War is not suficiently interesting as a stand-alone subject, separate from its participants and their immediate kin, it does not deserve special consideration. There is, of course, a staggering literature extant, added to vastly recently. That would remain as a rump, a very large footnote to history.

Considering that there is a not insignificant annual membership charge, I think that the number of members of the WFA is at least satisfactory. When it all started the aim was to keep it to a membership of about 300, which soon went by the wayside as the original members discovered that there were a lot more very interested people out there than had been anticipated.

 

I have no idea about the figures, but it would be informative to know how many members of this Forum have, over the years,  posted less than 10 times; less than fifty times, less than a hundred times. There will be numerous people who flit in and flit out - the vast majority, I am sure. Of course a crucial difference is that the Forum is free to use. It depends on volunteers to administer it; it offers one (albeit notable) gathering a year, voluntarily organised. 

 

I would also say that generally (obviously there are exceptions) organisations with annual subs (apart from professional bodies, of course) would tend to attract the retired for the simple reason that they have the time available to make the most of such a subscription - in the case of the WFA this is best illustrated by the extensive branch network (attendance at which, however and so far as I know, is open to all).

 

Therefore a pretty consistent (paying) membership of c. 6,000 over the last ten years or so seems pretty good to me. And the organisation has definitely evolved with the times: no need anymore for an aerial photograph service, or even a Cartographer; no more the need for a Historical Information Officer - easily available sources on the internet cover these requirements, whether it be via Google search (or whatever), or this Forum, or MacMaster (?spelling) for mapping, or the CWGC website, Ancestry and similar, cheap means for limited reprints of books - notably formation and unit histories and memoirs ... and so forth. The number of options available as readily accessible  sources to obtain information/knowledge for anyone with a Great War interest is vastly bigger than it was over thirty years ago when the WFA was founded.

 

So, I would say that this is certainly one of those what could be called 'moments' that happen periodically in any organisation's history; but they come, they fizzle, they usually pass and, most likely, things will carry on, evolving as the years go by.

 

 

[Ken Lees]

I would ask "why would a person join the WFA?" 

 

As Nigel says, there is so much (free) information available from so many sources that very little can, or needs to be, acquired from the WFA. 

 

Meetings can be interesting, but probably only for a hard core of members. The meetings I have been to have seemed to be a social get-together with the presentation (or quiz!) almost incidental. Those attending appear to be there because "it's important to support the WFA". 

 

I allowed my membership to lapse when I realised that I was getting nothing from the WFA beyond a five minute flick through the magazine when it landed on the mat. I can go to a meeting without being a member, although it's been quite a few years since my local branch even held one, as far as I am aware. Other than that the last meeting I went to was a very interesting presentation by a fellow GWF member. 

 

I forget that the WFA has a website and when I do remember I don't use it. It is like the GWF 's poor relation. 

 

I work on the Western Front and take hundreds of people around the battlefields each year. Many are newcomers, with family connections, many are keen to learn about the many and varied aspects of the Great War. I regularly advise on how they can get the most from the subject, but I have never mentioned the WFA to any of them. 

 

So, to sum up, in my opinion there has never been more interest in the Great War, never been more money spent by so many people to visit the battlefields, there is a thirst for knowledge that is satisfied from many sources, but the WFA isn't relevant to the current interested group. 

[Heid the Ba]

1 hour ago, nigelcave said:

I have no idea about the figures, but it would be informative to know how many members of this Forum have, over the years,  posted less than 10 times; less than fifty times, less than a hundred times. There will be numerous people who flit in and flit out - the vast majority, I am sure. Of course a crucial difference is that the Forum is free to use. It depends on volunteers to administer it; it offers one (albeit notable) gathering a year, voluntarily organised. 

 

If you go to the members list and order it by posts then you'll find there are several hundred members who have never posted, and a couple of thousand who have only posted a few times.

[keithmroberts]

"If you go to the members list and order it by posts then you'll find there are several hundred members who have never posted, and a couple of thousand who have only posted a few times "

 

True, and we slowly remove members with only a single post, or no posts who have not revisited the forum for a long time. We do not delete members who have entered into discussions or made several posts given the way in which occasionally apparently dormant members are suddenly linked by their posts to researchers or even family members with similar interests.

 

Keith

[Dragon]

If the WFA is failing to attract younger members, perhaps it needs to ask young people what would encourage them to join.  I don't really know what is meant by 'younger'  in a discussion where it's been mentioned that most people who join organisations with annual subscriptions are retired! 

 

We keep bees, which is another niche interest. It too tends to attract a disproportionate number of retirees and vicars (seriously; beekeeping and clergy have gone together since the days of monks). I am neither of retirement age nor a vicar. The annual subscription to the BBKA for an adult is also about £30, but that includes insurance for up to three hives plus public liability and product liability insurance, informative monthly publications, access to numerous skills training courses and examinations, and quality advice including visits from trained people to help you check your bees for diseases. It's very good value. (If you are a junior member it only costs £7 per year, under half that of the WFA.) The BBKA website is my go-to place for initial information and up-to-date commentary. I look at the WFA website and it seems so dense and dry.

 

I asked the WFA whether they offer concessionary subscriptions for people on low incomes, and was told that I wouldn't go into Sainsbury's and ask for a price reduction, so why should I expect it from the WFA? Would you join after that response? Would you feel welcome? I concluded then that they don't offer reductions because most of their membership must be retired and their income would drop, which is probably an unfair conclusion but I was wounded, patronised and angry.

 

As for young people: try starting a Twitter question. There are lots of young historians out there. Most of them don't belong to the GWF.

 

Gwyn

Edited 11 December , 2018 by Dragon

[SteveMarsdin]

Good afternoon,

 

Just a couple of points/questions:

1. Although WFA membership may have reduced slightly (albeit roughly consistent around the 6,000 mark as Nigel states) do we know how cumulative branch attendances have changed over the centenary period ?
2. Membership organisations seem to be declining generally: particularly in today's era of social media, many people don't see the need to officially belong to groups to further an interest

Steve

[keithmroberts]

There will soon of course be one "perk" for WFA members included with their membership fee; free access to the 4+ millions of pension Record cards and ledgers that are being uploaded to Ancestry's Fold 3. For those envisaging significant research into Great War servicemen this should become quite a useful marketing tool in the not too distant future.

[keithmroberts]

5 hours ago, keithmroberts said:

True, and we slowly remove members with only a single post, or no posts who have not revisited the forum for a long time. We do not delete members who have entered into discussions or made several posts given the way in which occasionally apparently dormant members are suddenly linked by their posts to researchers or even family members with similar interests.

Just to show the value of leaving most of those old posts - a member has posted today that he has been re-united with a family medal after a member found the connection in a post that he made in 2004.

 

Keith

[David Filsell]

The choice of course is for the wasteful urge for the WFA to go for the youth vote. To try to appeal by infantilising its activities and seeking to attract the internet button pressing young. Fact is, the lowest common is not the only denominator and the young have much else to do. Not least they are also short of cash I understand!

Many organistions seem to to think that growing membership with interactivity et al is all. It just ain't so, as the IWM has shown in spades. The  market for the WFA is small. It was never expected to be other and its health cannot be judged simply by its size. 

Edited 11 December , 2018 by David Filsell

[chaz]

I suppose a parallel/comparison can be made with motorcycle racing. i was a marshal then chief marshal at motocross/scrambles and a road race marshal both genres from club to world championship. When I started early eighties we had big memberships, riders came, riders went a few stayed. But, the part that suffered was the organisers. By the late nineties we found it hard to get people to build, layout, staff and marshal at meetings, so much so that road racing turned away from airfields (locally we had around 10 at our call) to permanent circuits that are staffed by the circuit. Effectively meaning races can be organised and managed by less people. The age of the organisers has dropped from seventies and eighties to thirties and forties. People still ask me now, when is the next local road race meeting? It's gone from 12 a year to 2, meanwhile riders get to ride countrywide not just Wiltshire and Gloucestershire. Entry fees for riders and spectators has gone up, better tracks, better races but further to travel. Even so, competitors are only likely to be there for 5 to 10 years, injuries and jobs/families allowing only a handful will last 20 years. Joe public? Comes in now on a as needs to basis, no longer a season long spectator.