Mark Nadin Posted 23 October , 2018 Share Posted 23 October , 2018 (edited) I am part of a group who recently attended a service in Belgium for a group of men buried in a cemetery ( communal cemetry not CWGC ) i have read about the spacing of headstones in various posts and I have a question! The war diaries Indictate 1 man died one day and eight the following. There is one man buried then there is a gap of just over standard width ( headstone plus 6” ) then seven other men all from the same regiment we have discovered that a soldier of the same battalion is on a marker over 11 hours march away ( as no known grave ) and we believe he may actually already lay along side his pals in the gap ! As it is a communist cemetry and was already such in the war does anyone think it’s possible his marker was lost and if so how can we go about trying to prove he lays along side his pals such as an exhumation Thsnks Mark Edited 23 October , 2018 by Mark Nadin Spelling error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 23 October , 2018 Share Posted 23 October , 2018 Mark, Who is the Soldier involved and also the name of the cemetery. Name, Rank, Number, Regiment, Battalion and Date of Death As with this information, will help in trying to give an answer Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Nadin Posted 23 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2018 Hi Alan i shall get details and forward them on. We have all relevant names etc in our group records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Nadin Posted 23 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2018 Here are the two files on him we believe he should lay in Orcq in a space between graves 1 and 2 ! Attached are the war diaries and it indicates 1 Officer 7 men on 23/10 and 1 on 22/10 we believe Izatt who is in grave 1 died on 22/10 despite his grave saying 23/10 and the gap is where Campbell actually lays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrenchrat22 Posted 23 October , 2018 Share Posted 23 October , 2018 Neil, when the Graves Registration Unit visited the cemetery back in 1920 they would have looked at the ground to see for any indication that there may have been a grave there. I have noticed the gap between graves 1 and 2 on the CWGC website and The cwgc website does show that those in Grave 2, all had there names on 1 cross. Izatt who is in grave 1, the Graves has Registration Report Form does show he died on 22/10 it would be hard to prove otherwise, that John Campbell is buried in between graves 1 and 2. As if died on the 23/10/1918 with the other 7, who died on the same day. Why does his name, not appear on the cross, with the other 7 names Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Nadin Posted 23 October , 2018 Author Share Posted 23 October , 2018 Alan Izatt stands alone then the other 7 are almost touching each with their names on singularly on a head stone Campbell appears on a memorial else where ( forgive me I can’t remember but it’s about 11 hours march away. With the gap we wondered if his marker had perhaps been lost or displaced hence when they arrived in 1920 he wasn’t recorded as buried there, least that is our assumption ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 December , 2018 Share Posted 22 December , 2018 Just noticed this topic, as I am going back through the files I have not seen to see if I can offer any assistance. For the moment, just gathering the facts. John Campbell #S/15814 is on the Ploegsteert Memorial (CWGC Link) so separation distance has nothing to do with the case. The men in question: surname initials death rank regiment Unit # ORCQ IZATT R 23-10-18 Lance Corporal Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/26870' A. 1. BARBER J 23-10-18 Private Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/25462' A. 2. BARTIE T R 23-10-18 Private Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/9729' A. 2. COCKBURN T 23-10-18 Private Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/12506' A. 2. CUMMING F K 23-10-18 Second Lieutenant Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 3rd Bn. attd. 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. A. 2. SOWERBY E 23-10-18 Private Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/6158' A. 2. WALLER T 23-10-18 Private Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/25347' A. 2. WEBB A 23-10-18 Private Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) 14th (Fife and Forfar Yeomanry) Bn. 'S/25378' A. 2. DAVIES O 06-11-18 Private Welsh Regiment 24th (Pembroke and Glamorgan Yeomanry) Bn. '59941' B. 1. BROWNE T A E 29-10-18 Private The Buffs (East Kent Regiment) 10th (R. East Kent and West Kent Yeomanry) Bn. 'T/270706' B. 2. SIMPKINS A 28-10-18 Private The Buffs (East Kent Regiment) 10th (R. East Kent and West Kent Yeomanry) Bn. 'G/25955' B. 3. TUCKER H B 24-10-18 Bombardier Royal Field Artillery 74th Medium T.M. Bty. '87247' B. 4. CHRISTENSON C A 24-10-18 Gunner Royal Field Artillery 74th Medium T.M. Bty. '251383' B. 5. WILLIAMS W G 22-10-18 Private Somerset Light Infantry "A" Coy. 12th (West Somerset Yeomanry) Bn. '39985' B. 6. MALPASS H 22-10-18 Private Somerset Light Infantry 12th (West Somerset Yeomanry) Bn. '18742' B. 7. HILL G W 21-10-18 Private Somerset Light Infantry 12th (West Somerset Yeomanry) Bn. '31351' B. 8. It would appear that they could not separate the remains for all the men in grave A.2 but could separate Izatt in grave A.1 and all the others in B.1 to B.8. It would appear that these were direct burials into this cemetery at the time of their death and the GRU found them in this location and later the standard CWGC headstones were installed to replace the wooden crosses. You would have to ask the CWGC if there is anything in the records to indicate whether the bodies were exhumed for identification at that time or if they just accepted what was listed on the cross they found in the cemetery. The CWGC does not always put all the available information on their web site. I do not believe the fact that there is a space between A.1 and A.2 would be taken as any evidence that there was another set of remains in that empty space. Most certainly any digging at the site would not be allowed but I don't think that anyone has ever asked if they would allow GPR within one of their cemeteries. We have a similar situation at the Nine Elms Military Cemetery where we believe that the men may actually be buried in a trench grave under their "memorial stones" and that the remains were not lost in a later battle. The man that is not mentioned is Private John Haggart #S/19537, the one mentioned in the war diary extract above as being killed on the 21st. He was buried at the Tournai CCAE after being found at 36.N.24.c.4.1. I would go back to the records for that cemetery and see if there is any indication of the grave of John Campbell at that location. Note that the COG-BR has him being of the 16th Black Watch, which is corrected on the GRRF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 22 December , 2018 Share Posted 22 December , 2018 Hi Mark Try contacting Mr Roy Hemmington at the Commonwealth War Graves, I have found him very helpful in the past with my enquiries. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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