2nd Btn Rifle Brigade, October 1916 - information please

[Margosh]

I have tried to find a suitable existing thread to bring up to ask my questions but nothing I found really fits. Apologies if this should be elsewhere rather than a new thread.

 

I am trying to fill in the final details of a recent discovery in my family research - my Grandmother's cousin. He served in the 2nd Btn Rifle Brigade. I have what is left of his service record, his MIC, list of effects etc and from the war diary and map comparisons I have located where they were (Rainbow/Zenith/Eclipse/Misty trenches) at the time of his death but I still have a couple of loose ends. Hopefully someone can answer these for me.

 

His death is shown as 22-24 October 1916, I see that they were involved in heavy action on 23rd (alongside 2nd Lincs.) resulting in 230 O/R woundes, killed or missing. My chap is on the Thiepval Memorial (which sadly I did not know last time I was there) so one of the missing on those dates. My first question is, was this a specific action or the ongoing struggle to push back the Germans? Both the 2nd Btn RB and the Lincolnshire's Diaries refer to Zero Hour and I (being very amateur) associate this more with a planned action than the ongoing daily actions. Forgive me if I am using really bad terms and descriptions!

 

My second question relates to his service number S/19458. Does the S indicate anything in particular?

 

I usually dig longer before asking questions but I suddenly realised that his anniversary is coming up this week so I would like to fill in the missing bits before then if possible and I haven't found answers to these two queries although I have tried.

 

As an aside, I also have his family history story. I have named him in the tag incase anyone comes along at a later date looking for him.

 

Many thanks

Margaret

[spof]

1 hour ago, Margosh said:

My second question relates to his service number S/19458. Does the S indicate anything in particular?

 

Hello Margaret

 

According to this thread it indicate he was in a Service Battalion i.e. one raised only for the war.

 

Glen

 

 

[Margosh]

3 hours ago, spof said:

 

Hello Margaret

 

According to this thread it indicate he was in a Service Battalion i.e. one raised only for the war.

 

Glen

 

 

 

Thank you so much Glen, that is a good thread I had not seen before (will remeber that one).  It makes sense as from the little that remains of his Service Record it looks like he was with 5th RF for just a few days (after training depot?) then posted to 2nd on arrival in France. Poor lad, 5 weeks in France and 3 weeks with his Battalion. His only sibling (brother) died just before the war.

 

I am writing his Military Service up now, I would really like to put him into context with how the 2 RB were involved in whatever action this was going on around Les Boeufs/ le Transloy/Gueudecourt.  On 23rd October they occupied trenches and dugouts which had clearly been German lines previously (equipment stores, dressing station etc). So, having answered the S/ question, at this point I am now more interested in the Battalion than the individual.

 

Margaret

 

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Margaret,

 

He attested on 23/1/16, sent to Army Reserve on 24/1/16. On 22/5/16 he was mobilised and sent to the 14th RB on 22/6/16, moving to the 5th RB on the Isle of Sheppey on 31/8/16. Embarking overseas on 14/9/16 and sent to the 2nd RB.

The S Prefix denoted New Army men, going from S/1 to S/38107 approx

 

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

The attack was part of the Transloy Ridge battles on the Somme. The attack of the 8th Division had limited success, the attacking units of the 23rd Brigade were held up on the right, but eventually succeeded in passing the first objective. The attack of the 24th Brigade succeeded on the left, but elsewhere had great difficulty from the enemy strong points. The centre attack, 25th Brigade, suffered severely. The Lincolnshire Regiment were completely shattered by rifle fire personally controlled by a gallant enemy who sprang out of zenith trench in spite of the creeping barrage, called up his men on the fire-step, and shot down the leading waves as they advanced. This had serious consequences for the 2nd Rifle Brigade advancing on the left of the Lincoln's. "A" and "B" Companies led the attack, with "C" and "D" following behind them. But the failure of the right battalion involved, also the right platoon of the Rifle Brigade which could make no headway against the strong point at the junction of Zenith and Eclipse trenches. The supports coming up were no luckier. Captain H. W. Simpson was killed in endeavouring to capture this important trench junction. Meanwhile "A" and "B" Companies had established themselves in a line of shell holes, where they were joined by the remnants of "C" and "D" Companies.

 

Andy

[Margosh]

18 minutes ago, stiletto_33853 said:

The attack was part of the Transloy Ridge battles on the Somme.

 

Thanks Andy! I hadn't heard this name before. I have to be honest I have not needed so far to do much research in this area of the Somme as none of my family (so I thought) were involved there at this time. I had searched my books and online but not come up with a specific 'offensive' (that might not be the right term).

 

I have just written up the events of those few days using the War Diary and I found a thread on here about the Lincolns. As I will be passing this information on I do think it is important to put the story into context so I can complete that, thank you. I have checked maps of the area around the trenches ready for a visit, now I know about him!

 

Margaret

 

PS I was just going to say, looking at your map which is slighty different from mine, that the tnew trench they dug must be around the xxxx line on the map. Then I looked at the references on the map! Absolutely perfect, thanks again.

Edited 20 October , 2018 by Margosh

[stiletto_33853]

The Commanding officer in his personal diary written after the war he says the following:-

October 22nd - dug-out in sunken road at Les Boeufs

Spent the whole day writing operation orders and making all arrangements,drawing and issuing bombs.

Companies began to move off at 8.0 p.m., but progress was desperately slow in the dark, as the roads were completely blocked with transports.

Our HQ are in a German dug-out and gallery in a sunken road that runs behind Les Boeufs and Morval. It is very cramped and narrow, one can't stand upright in it. It is full of flies and very filthy, but ought to be safe, except that it faces the wrong way. The Dublins and Hants have also got HQ's in this sunken road.

We attack tomorrow at 11.30 a.m. The Hants go for the first objective, and we pass through them and go for another 600 yards further on where we have got to dig a new line.

 

October 23rd.

A very misty foggy morning. Green and I went all round the front line and saw everyone and found them cheery. Owing to the weather the attack was put of till 2.30 p.m. We got out at 2.40 p.m. We got out of our trenches at 2.40 and moved off in four lines of small columns. On a topping rise we found the Hants hung up, and we ourselves came under the most terrific machine gun fire that skimmed the edge. We couldn't get along at all except in one or two isolated cases. We dug a new line and held the trenches with a mixed force of Hants, and R. B. and some Dublin's and Warwick's. It was a great disappointment, but it was impossible to get on. The Dublin's on our left gained little ground, but this is about the sixth unsuccessful attack that has been made on the position. There are no defined lines of trenches to go for, or that artillery can observe on - just a succession of small ridges and valleys, pock marked with shell holes, anyone of which may hold half a dozen boches or a machine gun. There are no visible land marks, and the country is just one vast waste smothered in mud and blasted beyond recognition. Seldom have I seen anything so dreary and desolate. To add to our difficulties, the forming up places for out last two attacks have had to be is six different lengths of trenches unconnected with each other and not even on the same alignment.

The Germans put up a terrific barrage of 5.9'sjust in front of our HQ, and all day and all night he shelled the only communication trench and track up to the front. When night fell it was inky black and it rained hard. Gunners and orderlies all lost their way and hardly a message got through. There was a good deal of chaos and confusion up in front owing to the intermingling of units - but that is always the case after an attack like this. Thank's to Green's enterprise and energy we got all the rations up to the men, but it was the greatest difficulty finding out where everyone was.

 

 

[stiletto_33853]

Further orders were received to all the Brigades to renew the attack. During the evening the troops of the 23rd Brigade on the right were shelled out of their position they had occupied. at 8.30 p.m.  the 25th Brigade was ordered to carry out a further attack to begin at 3.50 a.m. on the 24th. In this the Riflemen were to co-operate from their line of shell holes by attacking the junction of Zenith and Eclipse trenches. Rain however had fallen continually throughout the previous day and night, with the result that the state of the ground prohibited the troops from keeping pace with the creeping barrage, and the attack failed completely within a few moments of it's start.

The battalions engaged were relieved in the line that night.

 

Andy

Edited 20 October , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Margosh]

I have to thank you again Andy, this is so much more than I would have found. The account for 24th has more detail than the War Diary which only refers to holding the trench, no mention of the attempted attack. 

Interestingly he doesn't mention the Lincolns on 23rd. 

 

Margaret

[MBrockway]

6 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Hi Margaret,

 

He attested on 23/1/16, sent to Army Reserve on 24/1/16. On 22/5/16 he was mobilised and sent to the 14th RB on 22/6/16, moving to the 5th RB on the Isle of Sheppey on 31/8/16. Embarking overseas on 14/9/16 and sent to the 2nd RB.

The S Prefix denoted New Army men, going from S/1 to S/38107 approx

 

Andy

 

 

As Andy has highlighted, the Rifle Brigade S prefix does not mean a man was in a Service battalion, more that he was either a New Army volunteer, or later in the War, as here, he was a Group Scheme volunteer or a Military Service Act conscript.  Once trained he could be posted to any of the regiment's fighting battalions, whether Regular or Service.  In this case he was posted to one of the RB's four Regular battalions, not one of the Service battalions.

 

The same applies to the KRRC's R prefix equivalent

 

Mark

[kevinrowlinson]

On 21/10/2018 at 00:00, MBrockway said:

 

As Andy has highlighted, the Rifle Brigade S prefix does not mean a man was in a Service battalion, more that he was either a New Army volunteer, or later in the War, as here, he was a Group Scheme volunteer or a Military Service Act conscript.  Once trained he could be posted to any of the regiment's fighting battalions, whether Regular or Service.  In this case he was posted to one of the RB's four Regular battalions, not one of the Service battalions.

 

The same applies to the KRRC's R prefix equivalent

 

Mark

 

I disagree, but rather than go into the details why on this thread I shall try to explain on my original thread. I should point out that even at this stage in the use of the S prefix, the man was first posted to the 14th Reserve Battalion ( formally Service) before being posted to the 5th Reserve Battalion. Actually one could argue the date of transfer to the 5th was significant.

 

Kevin

[MBrockway]

Kevin,

My point was not on how the schema was intended to work, on which I think we agree, but rather that the conclusion that all S prefix men only went to Service battalions and that 'S' meant 'Service' is incorrect.

 

We have to remember that non-specialists come across these discussions when running web searches and many do not have the time, interest or rigour to read such search hits in their full context.

 

Glen's reply to the OP's question on the significance of the S Prefix was "According to this thread it indicate he was in a Service Battalion i.e. one raised only for the war. "

 

Non specialists whose only data is a name and service number and who are unaware about using medal rolls, could incorrectly conclude reading this that their relative must have been in Service battalion.

 

Those who follow Glen's link to your excellent topic would probably realise the truth is more complicated, but in my experience these days the majority stop their trawl as soon as they reach what seems to be a conclusive answer 

 

In this case here the S prefix does not indicate he was in a Service battalion, as S/19458 served overseas in 2/RB, which was not a Service battalion.

 

I would have used a form of words such as "he was a New Army enlistment originally intended for a Service battalion".  To be honest, I think Glen probably would agree with that meaning too and did not intend to sound so definitive.

 

For his time in Blighty, when S/19458 was called up in May 1916, 14/RB was most definitely a Reserve battalion and 5/RB was one the two original Reserve battalions.  True, 14/RB had begun life as a Service battalion in the original K4 army, but along with the whole of that K4 it was converted on 10 April 1915 to act as a Reserve battalion to replenish the existing K1-K3 Service battalions i.e. 7th to 13th battalions.

 

All four of these 14th and 15th Reserve battalions were converted to Training Reserve battalions on 01 Sep 1916.  On 31 Aug 1916, 259 men from 15/KRRC were transferred to 5/KRRC.  I'm sure the other three battalions would have made similar transfers at the same time, so I think you're entirely right about the significance of S/19458's 31 Aug move to 5/RB.

 

This background is certainly all well familiar to Kevin, but is included for other Pals.

 

Kevin, your research on the KRRC and RB service numbers has been excellent and certainly by me greatly appreciated!

 

Anyone taking the time to follow Glen's link will find it most interesting.

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 22 October , 2018 by MBrockway

[stiletto_33853]

Kevin,

Nothing but respect for your deductions, however have a slight difference on certain points, nothing major. The S Prefix was used extensively way beyond K3 or K4. But then we see other prefix's used, such as the P used for the 16th & 17th primarily, the B/200000 series from late September 1916, used a lot for Base grabs, however RB enlisting in the UK were also given this number at one time. The 40432 number onwards usually denoting transfer from other units and the TR used later in the war, however the S Prefix was still being used at the same time and was used until quite late in the war. Then we have the O Prefix, which we have discussed before. We have Z prefix men all joining at the same time over a period of a couple of weeks which also went to K1 battalions not just the Reserve. B Prefix I would agree for the K1 battalions, however they are listed elsewhere as previous soldiers re-enlisting which in a majority of the cases is not true.

The 14th & 15th RB Reserve battalion were formed in Southend-on-Sea. Their officers all resided in the Westcliff Hotel and the troops in a camp behind the Kursal.

The 5th is significant as there was a camp on the Isle of Sheppey used by the 5th for troops prior to being sent overseas (Scrapsgate), despite the other garrison postings for the 5th such as the Minster Workhouse, Shurland Hall, Leydon Coastguard and Warden Point. However troops were sent directly from the 14th & 15th to France as well, a good few to the 14th Div in the later half of 1915.

I have just been reading the letters from a Z Prefix man who went to the 1st RB from the 5th and survived.

At one time I seem to remember there were 3 or 4 separate sets of numbers all being used at the same time. I am sure this could also said in the KRRC.

 

Andy

Edited 22 October , 2018 by stiletto_33853

[Margosh]

Ironically the chap with the shortest length of service in my research is raising the most questions! Possibly because I am rushing this one a bit - I try to do more detailed research before asking questions. Maybe I am not looking hard enough at the others!

This is all most interesting. But as a definite non-specialist you have all lost me with mention of K3 and K4, I have no idea what these refer to.

 

As for Allan, his Casualty form is a bit of a mess with details crossed out and corrected. Originally with the name Alfred, changed to Allan. Date Service reckons from changed twice, Regiment changed from a stamped 5th to a written 7th then an amended 2nd. So I am not sure if some of this relates to the unknown Alfred (as I don't see 7th elsewhere on his records) or if that was simply a mistake.

The form recording his postings is very faint in parts and, until I read Andy's first post above, I had missed mention of 14th. This form lists

RB  D (Depot??)   Posted   Rfn   22-5-16

"      14                    "            "       26-5-16 (changed from 24th?)

"      5th                   "            "       31-8-16

        2nd        Posted to BEF France  14-9-16

 

This is a very basic question. Is a Service Battalion one that is intended to service/support the Regiment (but also provide additional fighting numbers)?

The S in this case does not necessarily stand for something beginning with S eg Service and in fact when arriving in France he was not in a Service Battalion. I have read and re-read these posts, Kevin's thread and searched online but I am sorry, I am still confused.

 

In simple terms, from attestation he was under General Service as Private. On mobilization he was allocted to RB as Rfn. To D which I presume is Depot. That would be for training? And to 14th a few days later which at that point was a Reserve Service Battalion?

And another basic question, would the S have been allocated at Attestation or at posting to RB?

 

Sorry, I must sound a bit slow on the take-up but I do learn such a lot on these forums.

 

Margaret

 

Edited 22 October , 2018 by Margosh

[Stebie9173]

The date of his transfer from the 14th Battalion is probably significant i.e. 31-8-1916. On 1-9-1916, the "Second Reserve" battalions (i.e the Reserve battalions formed from Service battalions, rather than pre-existing Reserve battalions) were disbanded and their men transferred to non-Regimental "Training Reserve Battalions". There was quite a large number of transfers from most Second Reserve battalions (14th, 15th and 17th in the Rifle Brigades case) on 31-8-1916 to move men to their historic Special Reserve battalions (5th and 6th Battalions in RB, 3rd Battalion in the majority of "County" Regiments). My belief is that these were men that were very nearly fully trained soldiers that they wanted to keep in the Regiment if at all possible.

 

 

Steve.

Edited 22 October , 2018 by Stebie9173

[kevinrowlinson]

18 hours ago, Margosh said:

 

The form recording his postings is very faint in parts and, until I read Andy's first post above, I had missed mention of 14th. This form lists

RB  D (Depot??)   Posted   Rfn   22-5-16

"      14                    "            "       26-5-16 (changed from 24th?)

"      5th                   "            "       31-8-16

        2nd        Posted to BEF France  14-9-16

 

This is a very basic question. Is a Service Battalion one that is intended to service/support the Regiment (but also provide additional fighting numbers)?

The S in this case does not necessarily stand for something beginning with S eg Service and in fact when arriving in France he was not in a Service Battalion. I have read and re-read these posts, Kevin's thread and searched online but I am sorry, I am still confused.

 

In simple terms, from attestation he was under General Service as Private. On mobilization he was allocted to RB as Rfn. To D which I presume is Depot. That would be for training? And to 14th a few days later which at that point was a Reserve Service Battalion?

And another basic question, would the S have been allocated at Attestation or at posting to RB?

 

 

Margaret,

 

Believe me there are many members who have thousands of posts under their belts who get confused by prefixes and the enlistment process. Fortunately you have your mans service record which many do not.

Firstly you should always consult the Long Long Trail if there is anything you do not understand - most of the answers you may have are there. Try http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-rifle-brigade-1914-1918/ , also look for Kitcheners First New Army (K1) etc. and the Derby Scheme.

Unlike my regiment of interest, the RGA, both the KRRC and the RB appear to have numbered their men on the day of posting to their intended Battalion up to approx this time, Aug 1916.  Except in exceptional cases (very few) a man would never have been numbered on attestation. He would have attested and told to report to the regimental depot where he would have given a uniform, equipment and eventually approved and posted to either a depot company, or a Battalion that was being formed. A mans number normally being allotted a few days after arrival at the depot. Your mans training was conducted with the 14th Reserve Battalion.

 

Kevin

 

 

18 hours ago, stiletto_33853 said:

Kevin,

Nothing but respect for your deductions, however have a slight difference on certain points, nothing major. The S Prefix was used extensively way beyond K3 or K4. But then we see other prefix's used, such as the P used for the 16th & 17th primarily, the B/200000 series from late September 1916, used a lot for Base grabs, however RB enlisting in the UK were also given this number at one time. The 40432 number onwards usually denoting transfer from other units and the TR used later in the war, however the S Prefix was still being used at the same time and was used until quite late in the war. Then we have the O Prefix, which we have discussed before. We have Z prefix men all joining at the same time over a period of a couple of weeks which also went to K1 battalions not just the Reserve. B Prefix I would agree for the K1 battalions, however they are listed elsewhere as previous soldiers re-enlisting which in a majority of the cases is not true.

 

Andy

 

"The S Prefix was used extensively way beyond K3 or K4."

Yep, as indicated on my original thread.

 

"But then we see other prefix's used, such as the P used for the 16th & 17th primarily,"

Yep, they never did learn, did they.

 

"the B/200000 series from late September 1916, used a lot for Base grabs, however RB enlisting in the UK were also given this number at one time."

Yep, they did get in a bit of a muddle - although they had to confuse it even more by replacing the O series they had already started by the B/200000 series.

 

"We have Z prefix men all joining at the same time over a period of a couple of weeks which also went to K1 battalions not just the Reserve."

Potentially interesting. Perhaps you would be so kind to list the men, who have service records, that show this.

 

"B Prefix I would agree for the K1 battalions, however they are listed elsewhere as previous soldiers re-enlisting which in a majority of the cases is not true."

Not by me, or you, so I personally wouldn't take any notice of what other people have previously written.

 

Any confusion that these prefixes coursed, and not just for later researchers, may have easily been avoided if they just stuck to one prefix for all new war only recruits, or like the RGA just used the regular series that was already in use. KISS springs to mind with regards prefix use, or preferably not used.

 

Kevin

 

Kevin

 

[Margosh]

1 hour ago, kevinrowlinson said:

 

Margaret,

 

Believe me there are many members who have thousands of posts under their belts who get confused by prefixes and the enlistment process. Fortunately you have your mans service record which many do not.

Firstly you should always consult the Long Long Trail if there is anything you do not understand - most of the answers you may have are there. Try http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-rifle-brigade-1914-1918/ , also look for Kitcheners First New Army (K1) etc. and the Derby Scheme.

Unlike my regiment of interest, the RGA, both the KRRC and the RB appear to have numbered their men on the day of posting to their intended Battalion up to approx this time, Aug 1916.  Except in exceptional cases (very few) a man would never have been numbered on attestation. He would have attested and told to report to the regimental depot where he would have given a uniform, equipment and eventually approved and posted to either a depot company, or a Battalion that was being formed. A mans number normally being allotted a few days after arrival at the depot. Your mans training was conducted with the 14th Reserve Battalion.

 

Kevin

 

Thank you Kevin.

 

Long Long Trail is always my first port of call. Usually I take my time putting a story together but I was rushing this one as I wanted to pass information on to other family for today. So I took the easy option and asked here! Now I can take my time and bring everything together for documentation. Mind you, research doesn't really stop does it, I return to 'my chaps' and seem to find more bits to add in to their story or I read something that adds to their background or context.

Last night after my last post it did come to me that K could stand for Kitchener, so thank you for confirming that.

 

 

18 hours ago, Stebie9173 said:

The date of his transfer from the 14th Battalion is probably significant i.e. 31-8-1916. On 1-9-1916, the "Second Reserve" battalions (i.e the Reserve battalions formed from Service battalions, rather than pre-existing Reserve battalions) were disbanded and their men transferred to non-Regimental "Training Reserve Battalions". There was quite a large number of transfers from most Second Reserve battalions (14th, 15th and 17th in the Rifle Brigades case) on 31-8-1916 to move men to their historic Special Reserve battalions (5th and 6th Battalions in RB, 3rd Battalion in the majority of "County" Regiments). My belief is that these were men that were very nearly fully trained soldiers that they wanted to keep in the Regiment if at all possible.

 

Thank you Steve, that's another bit of knowledge I can note and (try to) remember.

[MBrockway]

On 22/10/2018 at 16:52, Margosh said:

This is a very basic question. Is a Service Battalion one that is intended to service/support the Regiment (but also provide additional fighting numbers)?

The S in this case does not necessarily stand for something beginning with S eg Service and in fact when arriving in France he was not in a Service Battalion. I have read and re-read these posts, Kevin's thread and searched online but I am sorry, I am still confused.

 

In simple terms, from attestation he was under General Service as Private. On mobilization he was allocted to RB as Rfn. To D which I presume is Depot. That would be for training? And to 14th a few days later which at that point was a Reserve Service Battalion?

And another basic question, would the S have been allocated at Attestation or at posting to RB?

 

Margaret

 

 

Nope!  'Service' here is used in the sense that the battalion was authorised only for War Service and would be disbanded once the war had been satisfactorily finished.  Obviously in a pukka democracy like ours, we don't want to expand a standing Regular Army in time of crisis without also being able to safely shrink it back down again later to only the 'Regular' battalions.

 

A battalion that trained new soldiers and provided replenishment drafts to the fighting battalions of the same regiment was known as a 'Reserve' battalion.  With respect to battalions, the two terms 'Service' and 'Reserve' are mutually exclusive - a Reserve Service battalion is impossible!

 

As all the fighting 'Service' battalions were brand new, they each began their lives with a period of training at home to get their original establishment of men ready for battle.  Once abroad and fighting, their replenishments all came as a steady stream of new men from the 'Reserve' battalions (and after 01 Sep 1916) the Training Reserve.

 

14th KRRC, 14th RB, 15th KRRC and 15th RB, however, were ORIGINALLY authorised as 'Service' battalions intended to go out as fighting units.  They were part of what was to be the fourth volunteer Kitchener Army or 'K4'.   Early in 1915 though, British losses on the Western Front forced a rethink and it was decided to break up these units and use the men as replenishments for the first three Kitchener armies.  The existing 'Reserve' battalions were too few to be able to train men fast enough to supply replenishments for what was by now a much larger fighting force. The K4 battalions were thus converted from 'Service' to 'Reserve' battalions in Apr 1915 with their emphasis on feeding replenishments to the Kitchener 'New Armies' - i.e K1, K2 and K3.

 

A new recruit in peacetime would indeed get some basic training at the Rifle Depot before being posted to a battalion.  In a full scale war though, the Rifle Depot was too busy just acting as Depot, so the new recruits generally only got allocated a service number, given a uniform (not even that early on!) and a travel warrant to go to one of the regiment's 'Reserve' battalions, where they would begin training in earnest.

 

Mark

 

[Margosh]

On 24/10/2018 at 01:03, MBrockway said:

 

Nope!  'Service' here is used in the sense that the battalion was authorised only for War Service and would be disbanded once the war had been satisfactorily finished.  Obviously in a pukka democracy like ours, we don't want to expand a standing Regular Army in time of crisis without also being able to safely shrink it back down again later to only the 'Regular' battalions.

 

 

Mark

 

 

Mark

Many apologies for not replying sooner. I did read your post last week when not logged in and time rushes by too fast!

Thank you very much for the additional information, and corrections. Hopefully I have inwardly digested but in case not I have also made notes.

 

Margaret

[Guest]

Hi.

I too have a relative killed on 23rd Oct in same battalion. His name was Arthur Atkins s/16437 ... how can I find out more about him? I dont think a service record exists. Please help ( thanks for info above!) 

[Margosh]

On 13/11/2018 at 20:07, James Brady said:

Hi.

I too have a relative killed on 23rd Oct in same battalion. His name was Arthur Atkins s/16437 ... how can I find out more about him? I dont think a service record exists. Please help ( thanks for info above!) 

 

Hello James and welcome to the Forum (although I am pretty much a newcomer myself).

What information were you looking  for about your relative? Military or more general? I see he is on the same Pier as my relative (as they were KiA at the same time). I had a quick look on Ancestry and FMP and there doesn’t seem to be much detail I can connect to him. What more do you know so far?

the best place to start with research is The Long Long Trail site, this page guides you in where to look for information about an individual: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/ 

 

Do you use Ancestry or FMP? If so the War Diary is available and that gives detail of where they were and what was happening in the run up to 23rd October. 

I found a Medal Index Card, Medal Roll and Soldiers Effects list (all on Ancestry) which seem to be his but give no more detail than his service number. The Effects list indicates his mother’s name was Eliza?

 

Margaret