Any idea what unit this soldier is with?

[1 IG]

I have been researching a Grenadier Guardsman who fell in action in the early part of the Great War, of whom we knew very little about, however having obtained his service records and delved a little deeper from there, ! have now put together a considerable amount of information regarding his service, but I have no photographs of him, that was until today when a family member discovered the attached photograph of a soldier in an old family recipe book!! I personally do not think he is a Grenadier, first no Grenadier Guards patches at the top of his tunic shoulders, the lanyard makes me think he may have been in some artillery unit, maybe even a Fusilier, but I certainly do not recall ever seeing Guardsmen with lanyards, The collar badge also has me puzzled, in my experience the only time Guardsmen wear collar badges was in Home Service uniform, my own Regiment having the shamrock embroidered on both collars, I did wear brass shoulder titles on No.2 dress jacket lapels in the early to late sixties, as did all my fellow Guardsmen in the Brigade in those days, this after my demob reverted to the old embroidered Irish Guards shoulder badges, so in fact it went full circle. I would welcome any comments regarding the photograph and any identification of the collar badge and possible unit would be gratefully received, I am also attaching another photograph taken pre Great War of a group of Coldstream, Guardsmen, one of whom on the front row sporting the moustache was the brother in law of the Grenadier that I am researching. He survived the war.

Michael 

Soldier-Unknown.pdf

Thomas-Coldstream Guards.pdf

[ss002d6252]

Royal Fusilier collar dogs ?

Craig

[1 IG]

Hi Craig

             That was one of my thoughts, hence my comment possible Fusilier. Not sure if they wore lanyards though, hopefully a Fusilier expert may be able to help on that score, thanks for posting the reply.

Michael

[wainfleet]

I'm sure he's a Fusilier. I've seen at least one wartime photo of a Royal Fusilier with collars like that. I don't think there is any significance to the lanyard.

[Steven Broomfield]

12 minutes ago, wainfleet said:

I'm sure he's a Fusilier. I've seen at least one wartime photo of a Royal Fusilier with collars like that. I don't think there is any significance to the lanyard.

 

I think it was commoner in Service Battalions - presumably the grenade from the shoulder titles.

[1 IG]

Thank you both for your replies, I too am convinced that he must be a Fusilier, I need to speak with the family to discover if there is anyone else in the family who may have served in the Great War, all I know is that there were two boys, one a Grenadier the other a Coldstream Giardsman, both survivors, and the brother in law, also a Grenadier Guardsman who I am researching who perished, regards

Michael

[FROGSMILE]

Do not completely rule out RA also, the “universal grenade” was actually the RA collar badge from 1881 until the 1920s (I forget the exact year that it changed to include an UBIQUE scroll), although it was generally used on just full dress tunics and pre-war undress blue frocks (working jackets). It was only adopted for Fusilier and Gren Gds SD STs in 1905 (as well as various other uses, both in British and Dominion forces, hence “universal”).  I say this because after carefully examining the ST it looks like a plain RA in block letters, as used by RA Fmn HQ staff (clerks etc).  The lanyard has been carefully whitened, which although not in any way conclusive evidence at that time (it was popular in various units when out of the line), together with the other features might suggest an artilleryman.  RF (and other Fusilier) units tended to wear either, the universal grenade together with block letters, e.g. RF, or after 1916, the one piece RF title with rose embossed grenade (or equivalents for other Fusiliers).  Only LF and RWF wore the universal grenade as a full dress collar badge as per the RA.

Edited 20 October , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[1 IG]

Thank you for the comments regarding the possibility that he may not be a Fusilier but an Artilleryman, I am still awaiting a response from the owner of the image to discover if anyone can give me names of other members of the family who served during the Great War in the hope that I may be able to discover through the MIC's a unit, it is quite a puzzle as the image was discovered inside an old recipe book belonging to the widow of the Grenadier Guardsman who fell in action in 1914, and as such is a complete mystery at this present time, the widow's two brothers were both Guardsmen who survived, and the family naturally assumed that the image must have been her late husband, obviously not given the uniform, so at this moment in time I await further developments, I am of course grateful for your added information, more food for thought.

Michael

[MBrockway]

I've seen modern Royal Engineers ORs wearing a gilt flaming grenade collar badge with the UBIQUE scroll in No 2 Dress

 

I believe when worn by officers with No 1 Blues and the stand up collar, the collar badge is placed horizontally with the flames facing the rear, which seems similar to the photo.

 

Could RE be a further option for this chap here?

 

Mark

 

Edited 19 October , 2018 by MBrockway

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, MBrockway said:

I've seen modern Royal Engineers ORs wearing a gilt flaming grenade collar badge with the UBIQUE scroll in No 2 Dress

 

I believe when worn by officers with No 1 Blues and the stand up collar, the collar badge is placed horizontally with the flames facing the rear, which seems similar to the photo.

 

Could RE be a further option for this chap here?

 

Mark

 

 

No Mark, RE ORs did not wear any collar badge at all until the 1920s.

[MBrockway]

Yep - looks like you're right: no sign of any sapper OR collar dogs from our period even in full dress.  Shame as RE would have fitted well for the STs!

 

Here's an example of RE officer's full dress from c.1910 so you see what I was getting at ...

 

Not dissimilar to RA and RF collars, though the grenade detail and buttons differentiates it from RF and of course RA would not be in scarlet!

 

All sources I've checked have the OR's and JNCO's collar plain in all forms of dress, whereas RA gunners definitely do use the grenade collar badge in full dress.

 

To be honest I'm puzzled to see a collar badge at all in khaki SD.  I cannot find any for RF and RA either!

 

If they were re-introduced for SD in the 1920's for the RE, could the photo actually be later than Great War?

 

Mark

Edited 19 October , 2018 by MBrockway

[FROGSMILE]

Yes the RE officers wore the exact same collars as the RA from very early on.  It’s just the RE ORs that did not wear any collar badges  (on any dress) until the 1920s.  Ironically in 1881 their SNCOs were ordered to wear the grenade as an arm badge equivalent to the longstanding RA gun as part of efforts to standardise as far as possible (cavalry and Guards remained different) the configuration of rank badges.  The gilding metal universal grenade was thus used as an RE arm badge on some forms of dress (most of their arm badges were cloth).

 

The wearing of collar badges during WW1 was not authorised and rarely worn by any but war-raised Service Battalions, there is a lengthy thread on this within the forum.

 

Collar badges were at last authorised for SD in 1924 along with improvements to its fit and encouragement to smarten up the drabness of what had replaced the pre-war coloured frocks other than in India, Canada and the West Indies.

 

With the foregoing in mind it’s not impossible that the photo is post-war.

Edited 19 October , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

I found this on flikr captioned as Canadian artillery gunner - it's a good match, though I cannot see rifle patches and the collar looks like a single stand-up rather than a tightly buttoned foldover collar as in the OP's photo   ...

 

Source: here

 

Frogsmile's points re British Army RA HQ staff equally apply though and they would presumably look very similar (less the bandolier obviously).

 

Edited 19 October , 2018 by MBrockway

[FROGSMILE]

That’s a good example of Dominion forces use of the universal grenade.  He wears a Canadian pattern khaki drab jacket that in the operational theatre was usually replaced with the British pattern.

[1 IG]

Thanks everyone for your input, I have to say that I certainly have many avenues in which to channel my continued search in identifying the soldier in question, and now I have received another photograph of a group of Coldstream Guards from the family and would very much like to have someone give me an idea of a possible date when it was taken, what really has me puzzled is that they all appear to have collar dogs, with the exception of the Officer, look forward to any enlightenment

Michael

Coldstream Guards group.pdf

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

Thanks for posting the CG pictures.

 

The most recent one is of men serving in 4th (Pioneer) Battalion- hence the crossed rifle and pick collar “dogs”.

 

I’d say it was taken after July 1916 as I think that was the date that wound stripes were introduced - the man standing far right has 2 wound stripes and 3 long service stripes.

 

Have you got a name for your relative? Forum member Coldstreamer has a nominal roll for 4th CG. If your relative is mentioned you may be able to identify the CSM seated front row left.

 

My gf served 4th CG June 1916/Feb 1919 on recovery from wounds sustained with 2nd CG at Reutel Woods, Ypres November 1914.

 

Steve

Edited 19 October , 2018 by tullybrone

[1 IG]

Hi Steve

               The Coldstream Guardsman is Private Thomas Houseman Durrands, service number 6997, I believe that he was in the earlier group photograph seated at the front with the moustache, he survived the war. He enlisted in October 1906, and was mobilized in August 1914, I think he was with the 3rd Battalion, he also had a brother William Tebbutt Durrands who also served with the Coldstream Guards and survived, his service number was 8079, I think he was taken as a Prisoner of War.

Michael

[tullybrone]

Hi,

 

William’s Medal Index Card confirms he was taken POW.

 

If Thomas served 3rd CG during his 3 years colour service pre WW1 he likely spent some time in Egypt.

 

You may get some more information if you drop Forum member Coldstreamer a PM.

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[1 IG]

Hi Steve

             Yes he served in Egypt from the 31st October 1907 to the 23rd March 1911.

Michael