HOSPITAL SHIP SAILINGS

[petestarling]

I am trying to find out which hospital ships sailed from Boulogne to England on and around 16 April 1917. Anyone know if there is a listing in the TNA other than going through individual war diaries.

[TEW]

You could try Lines of Communications; Boulogne Base; DDMS diary WO95/4014/2. Not on ancestry but a download for £3.50.

 

I have a similar diary for Rouen Base which lists Ambulance Train arrivals and Ship departures but one never knows what'll be in a diary.

 

TEW

[petestarling]

TEW

Thanks, at TNA next week so will have a look.

 

Pete

[Terry_Reeves]

13 minutes ago, petestarling said:

TEW

Thanks, at TNA next week so will have a look.

 

Pete

Pete

 

I have said war diary.  The following sailed on 16th April

 

Princess Elizabeth - 350 OR

 

St Denis - 5 Officers, 491 OR

 

Jan Breydel  -  15 Officers, 613 OR

 

TR

Edited 20 September , 2018 by Terry_Reeves

[petestarling]

Terry,

Thank you very much. 

 

Pete

[robertb]

TEW,

There would seem to be three references to WD for the L of C base at Rouen at the National Archives: WO 95/4046 (1st March 1916-31st December 1918); WO 95/4044 (1st October 1914-31st January 1919); WO 95/4045 (1st January 1915-31st March 1919).

I am looking for the hospital ship that would have accepted the casualties from Ambulance Train 21 (Trip LXXVII - from Vecquemont to Rouen) on the 13th July 1916. 

My question is which diary should I download?  Or, would you suggest all three?

Rob

[TEW]

Looking at the Discovery listing I'd say WO95/4044/3 is the one you want. If you can wait till tomorrow I'll check what I have at home.

 

Sometimes the Ambulance trains load directly onto the ship so AT21 diary may have the answer. Alternativley AT21 may have offloaded wounded at Rouen and some were shipped home and others hospitalised in France for a while.

 

The other annoying issue I've spotted is that the DMS 4th Army has tables of Ambulance Trains & Barge movements from July to Oct 1916. The annoying part is that for Rouen the train numbers don't always match up with the Rouen Base diary. Have yet to work out which diary is in error.

TEW

[robertb]

Thank you for the prompt reply.  Looking forward to the missive tomorrow.

[TEW]

Well at least the 4th Army DMS and Rouen Base diaires concur in this case.

 

As you can see, 21AT left Vecquemont 13:00 hrs 13/7/1916 and then seems to have arrived in Rouen the following day. Quite some journey as it's only 70 miles as the crow flies. Later the same day HS St. Andrew &  HS St. George left Rouen. Pity we don't know the times of arrivals for the ATs and departures of the ships. The ships do have diaries but don't cover this period.

If you're tracking a casualty and you know he arrived in a UK hospital around 15th-16th July 1917 the rest may be irrelevant.

 

There are two ATs arriving in Rouen 14/7/1916 with a total of 863 wounded. Two ships leave with a total of 675 wounded which means 188 (21.78%) wounded were not evacuated to the UK by those ships. However, another AT leaves Rouen for Le Havre with 432 wounded. Possibly another 244 wounded from hospitals in Rouen joined the 188 other casualties and went to Le Havre for ship transport.

 

Another way of putting it is that 78% of the wounded from the two ATs were shipped home from Rouen but was your man?

 

Diary for 21AT may say that they loaded the wounded onto HS ...............

TEW

[robertb]

TEW,

Thank you so much.  There is soldier I am looking at - Thomas Jones - 25251 17th RWF. At the Battle of Albert (Mametz Wood), with the 38th (Welsh) Division he had a shrapnel wound to his elbow, and evacuated to the UK, via Minden Post and 34th CCS at Vecquemont, and 21st Ambulance Train to Rouen.  Later he recovers from his wounds in the UK and eventually ends up in the 10th RWF with a new number (70149).  He was killed at the Battle of Polygon Wood (26 September 1917).  His body was never recovered. He is commemorated on the Tyne Cote Memorial.

I am trying to piece together what hospital ship, from Rouen (July 1916), he may have sailed on, and what hospital in the UK he was admitted to.

Thanks again,

Rob

[KennyD]

I would love to know which Ambulance Train arrived from Grevilliers No. 3 Casualty Clearing Station on 10th April 1917 to unload patients at No. 5 General Hospital at Rouen.

 

I had a relative on that train with a severe gunshot wound to his left leg...

I am hoping there is a diary entry somewhere that would answer this - his records do not show which ambulance train.

Cheers, Ken.

[sotonmate]

No 3 CCS has surviving Admission and Discharge ledgers. There is a fair chance that the mode of discharge from the CCS is listed against casualty entry. Here the ref:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C543979

 

[TEW]

No 3 CCS was at Aveluy 10/4/17, they closed down 11/4/17 and moved to Grevillers where they opened 14/4/17.

I'd guess the relevant Ambulance Train movement is;

16 AT left Aveluy 9/4/17 and arrived Rouen 10/4/17 with 458 ordinary ranks.

TEW

[Ian Berry]

Hello, I am aware that this thread goes back a few years but hopefully it is still active. Please allow me explain.

I am on the trail of my Great Grandfather 7658 Pte David Rothwell Berry 8th Loyal North Lancashire Regt. I have been to The National Archives several times and have read and recorded the information from the Regimental Diaries for the period August to November 1916. I have also purchased the book 8LNLR during WW1. At the beginning of October 1916 the Battalion were engaged in The Battle for Ancre Heights and it is likely that he was shot on the first day, 1st Oct. The records for 3 Casualty Clearing Station show his admission on 2nd Oct along with 22 of his Battalion pals, almost all with GSW V111 and 1X. So assuming he was moved via a Regimental Aid post this would fit. He was moved out of 3CCS on the 4th Oct on No. 21 Ambulance Train, bound for Boulogne, arriving on the 5th Oct. David died from his wounds in Horton Military Hospital Epsom Surrey (I have his death cert) on 26th November 2016. There are records in the London Metropolitan Archives which I have also been to, but they do not show admissions into Horton Hospital.

I have been unable to join the two bits together despite having checked Lines of Communication. I am trying to work out the period from his arrival in Boulogne on 5th October, to his eventual death on 26th Nov. How long did he remain in Base Hospital in Boulogne, which Hospital ships sailed from Boulogne and to where?

Any guidance would be appreciated. Many thanks

Ian

Sandhurst Berks

(Ex Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers)

[TEW]

Have you checked the Boulogne Base diary WO95/4013/4 & 5?

This has daily tables for arrivals of wounded and a daily return of the 12 base hospitals.

No individual details given but for example on 5/10/16 1,630 ordinary ranks arrived at the base via 4 different ambulance trains.

The daily returns needs some time studying but 366 wounded were evacuated to the UK on 5/10/16 and 288 the following day. Some of these could be men wounded earlier than Berry as the base had 2,059 wounded remaining on 4/10/16.

The table also shows total numbers admitted to each base hospital 5/10/16, 92 to 13 General Hospital, 79 to 8 Stationary etc.

The above is not going to directly answer your query as the time frame is potentially 7 weeks with many 1000s being admitted and evacuated on a weekly basis.

He could of course have arrived off 21 AT at 6.56am and been one of the 366 wounded arrivals evacuated to the UK via the St. Andrew the same day. Or, the 608 the following day etc.

Tracking down service or pension records for his 22 pals may be a better option, were they all on 21 AT? If so and they have records does a pattern emerge?

NB. There is a disparity in the 366 wounded evacuated from the base 5/10/16 and the 421 who sailed on the St. Andrew the same day. Possible the extra 55 were loaded directly to the ship and were not admitted to a base hospital.

TEW

Edited 18 November , 2022 by TEW

[Ian Berry]

Thanks TEW, I was struggling to find any meaningful data on arrivals and departures from Boulogne around those dates, and this puts more meat on the bones, albeit non specific at individual level due to the volume. According to the 3CCS records, the majority of the 22 8LNLR soldiers admitted on the 2nd Oct were shipped out on No 21 Ambulance Train. I have attached the records I photographed yesterday, which shows the top section of the page and the corresponding opposite page. I suppose the next stage will be to research HMHS St Andrew and see what that throws up. I already have the data on No21 Amb Train for those dates.

I live just down the road from the RAMC Museum in Mychett and have been in touch with the curator but they too don't hold any specific records, just general information

Thanks again. If you think of anything else please shout.

[Ian Berry]

No21 Amb Train for the first week of Oct 1916

[TEW]

I've just checked through a very slim option for 8/LNL wounded in the time frame. The only man I found is 28054 Halliwell evacuated to UK 8/10/16 from 3 Canadian GH. Is he one of the 3CCS contingent?

I don't think the St. Andrew has a diary and the main ships on this route were the Andrew, David, Patrick and occasionally the Panama & Denis. There's an average of two ship sailings a day from Boulogne none of which have diaries.

Apart from looking at it as a statistical probability based on the daily returns and ship sailings for the days with higher evacuation totals than others EG. 7/10/16 only 60 men were evacuated from hospitals and 515 12/10/16.

To add an unlikely scenario, 31 men were transfered to other bases 10/10/16, that's a tiny percentage.

His wound codes equate to 'simple flesh & confusions of the upper and lower body extremities'. As a general rule it's better for the bases to evacuate the slightly wounded to the UK and keep bed space for the more severe cases or the very light wounded who could be returned to duty ASAP

On that basis I'd suggest he was evacuated early on.

As there are details of the 363 men arriving in Boulogne 5/10/16 you should find approx 144 service or pension files and a percentage if those will have a B.103 sheet showing how they were dealt with and hopefully a pattern emerges.

TEW

[Ian Berry]

I follow your logic so I guess it's a case of 'he was shipped out and arrived between'. I have looked at some of the additional records on 3CCS and some were returned to service and continued on, one absconded etc etc.

The copy of the death certificate from the General Register Office records the death of David on the 26thNovember 1916 at Horton (County of London) War Hospital Epsom. Cause of death on David's Death Cert is recorded as: Gunshot wound right leg amputation Gunshot wound composite fracture right arm Secondary haemorrhage Certified by JR Lord Lt Col RAMC  Nov 2018 – Further research indicates JR Lord as being the Medical Superintendent at Horton War Hospital he wrote a book about his experiences which IWM have a copy of, but he does not appear on the RAMC database of Regular Officers. As researched at the RAMC Museum Keogh Barracks Mychett.

[TEW]

Seems his injuries were more serious than 3CCS noted against his name. Bone damage should equate to VIII.IV for the arm injury and IX.II, III or IV for the leg.

If he was deemed fit to travel based on the 3CCS details it may be a contributing factor.

TEW

[seaJane]

3 hours ago, Ian Berry said:

Nov 2018 – Further research indicates JR Lord as being the Medical Superintendent at Horton War Hospital he wrote a book about his experiences which IWM have a copy of, but he does not appear on the RAMC database of Regular Officers. As researched at the RAMC Museum Keogh Barracks Mychett. 

Lord JR. The story of the Horton (Co. of London) War Hospital, Epsom: its inception and work, and some reflections. London: Heinemann, 1920.

There are a few copies round the UK, including in the British Library. Your local public library should be able to arrange an inter-library loan for you.

Regards

sJ

[Ian Berry]

SeaJane - Thanks for that. I am going to try the library of The Royal Military Academy Sandhurst tomorrow, as I only live round the corner.

Edited 20 November , 2022 by Ian Berry