Cap badge distorted by reflection

[FROGSMILE]

This soldier doesn’t seem to wear the badge of a regular army unit, and the reflection of the sun seems to be distorting it’s overall shape.  My best guess is that it might be TF Yeomanry, or perhaps VTC.  What do others think?

Edited 13 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

Can you enlarge it?

[Sepoy]

I think you are correct about the badge being VTC as I recognise it, but needless to say I cannot remember the unit title and I am away from my copy of Kipling and King.

I have played around with the brightness and contrast of the photo, to make the badge a little clearer.

Sepoy

Edited 13 September , 2018 by Sepoy

[Sepoy]

Annoyingly, I am certain that I have recently seen a photograph of this badge, but I cannot remember the title of the unit. It is something like the Institute of Engineers VTC.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you both.  I did think that on balance the VTC seemed ostensibly more likely as there was no mounted duty features suggesting yeomanry, but the VTC had their own rank badges until 1918 I think. After that they became volunteer battalions with conventional army dress, so it does seem mysterious.

 

Steven:  I only have the photo on my phone , so no way to focus in, nor access to a computer at the moment.

 

Sepoy:  thanks for providing the enlarged and cropped view and the VTC suggestion.  I wonder if there’s an image of the badge accessible via the web.

 

The King Edward’s Horse badges did come momentarily to mind, but I don’t think it is them and the badge we can see appears unusually large.  Also the buttons seem quite small and might be ball-type ‘a la’ Hussars.  The central buttons are usually larger than those on the pockets.

Edited 15 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

Hello, 

Swindon and District VTC maybe?

 

Chris

[Rob B]

Was wondering about the Lothian and Border Horse, the top certainly fits with the shape of the sheaf of corn. 

Can't see another similar badge in The Yeomanry Regiments by PJR Mileham.

Edited 14 September , 2018 by Rob B

[Steven Broomfield]

I have to say that the lady next to him looks just like my Gran (in about 1970).

[Rob B]

It's the badge not the beach hat!

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks everyone.  Am trying to find out where the photo was taken and any name that might be associated.  Will report back in due course.

[FROGSMILE]

Apparently the location of the photo was near Tunbridge Wells Kent, the man shown is either, Frederick, or Henry/Harry Bonwick.

[Sepoy]

I have just had a quick look through a box of unsorted photographs, which I had recently started going through and scanning. I am certain that the badge in question was amongst a number of VTC Badge photographs given to me by the late Hugh King. Needless to say, I decided to scan them later and of course, I have no idea where I put them!

I will continue to hunt for it.

 

Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Sepoy, the badge is certainly unlike any that I have seen before, and the VTC option puzzles me because of the Lance Corporal stripes.

 

Chris’s suggestion seems of the right make up, but insufficiently large and without the flared top apparent in the image.

 

He looks too old to be junior division OTC and does not have the quasi officer dress usually seen on senior division members.  Ideas and options are running out and yet the answer must be out there.  Central buttons are usually larger than those on the pockets.

 

 

Edited 15 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

Interesting you should say Kent, I put a magnify glass to it and I can see a horse shape on the badge, what do you chaps think?

 

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

I'm going to go off on a whim here. 

After finishing my Sunday tasks and passed the wife's rigorous inspection, I studied this badge zoomed in and with a magnifying glass.

I think it's the Kings Liverpool Regiment!

My reasons are as follows.

As well as the glare from the sun, I think the subject moved when the photo was taken.

The scroll at the bottom is the same as the KLR badge, there is a horse on the badge, the same stance as the KLR badge. If you look carefully, the horse is repeated on top, there is also on the top left of the badge on the hat, there is like a 'B' shape, that shape is also repeated on the badge and just below. 

I have seen many photos where the subject has moved and the badges have been distorted, this appears to have happened here, there are repeated marks on the hat and the badge in a diagonal shape.

The scroll and horse look like KLR and the sun glare and movement of the subject has distorted the badge.

Thats what I think, don't know what you think chaps.

 

Chris

 

[BillyH]

But if he moved as you say, he would have Corporals stripes not Lance Corporals   

(and 2 pairs of lips)

 

BillyH.

Edited 16 September , 2018 by BillyH

[Dragoon]

15 minutes ago, BillyH said:

But if he moved as you say, he would have Corporals stripes not Lance Corporals   

(and 2 pairs of lips)

 

BillyH.

Just a slight head movement, because the the badge has a glare on it it has emphasised it, so face etc won't be affected.

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting theory Chris.  Might the same phenomenon not apply to the Royal East Kent Yeomanry (upper) or the Royal West Kent Regiment (lower) ?

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

Horse seems to be lower down but certainly cannot see why it can't be above units also.

I believe it's literally just glare above the badge. I maybe completely wrong, but it really does seem that way.

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Horse seems to be lower down but certainly cannot see why it can't be above units also.

I believe it's literally just glare above the badge. I maybe completely wrong, but it really does seem that way.

 

Chris

 

It’s a useful pointer Chris and the location of the photo chimes with the RWK.  I’ve posted what’s been learned so far in the ‘Soldiers’ section to see what can be discovered via the names known.  Already there’s a tie in with Tunbridge Wells, so the RWK is definitely a runner (pun unintended).

 

Edited 17 September , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm not a badge or uniform expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do a lot of photography and use Photoshop a lot, along with filters that can minimize blur due to shake of the camera, depth of field issues or movement of the subject.

I don't think there is a significant amount of any of those in this photo, and I can't see any resemblance of this badge to any of the horse badges.

You can pick up a lot of detail in the photo- the pattern on the lady's dress, the bark on the tree behind, shows there's no camera shake and that depth of field is OK.

This badge has three distinct points at the top, one higher than the two on either side, giving a symmetry at that point.  Although the image is fuzzy, (a scanning artifact I'd say), none of the top points are excessively blurred to suggest movement of the subject.

Other landmarks on the cap seem in focus.

 

A really high resolution scan would help if that's possible.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I'm not a badge or uniform expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do a lot of photography and use Photoshop a lot, along with filters that can minimize blur due to shake of the camera, depth of field issues or movement of the subject.

I don't think there is a significant amount of any of those in this photo, and I can't see any resemblance of this badge to any of the horse badges.

You can pick up a lot of detail in the photo- the pattern on the lady's dress, the bark on the tree behind, shows there's no camera shake and that depth of field is OK.

This badge has three distinct points at the top, one higher than the two on either side, giving a symmetry at that point.  Although the image is fuzzy, (a scanning artifact I'd say), none of the top points are excessively blurred to suggest movement of the subject.

Other landmarks on the cap seem in focus.

 

A really high resolution scan would help if that's possible.

 

Noted.  Scan of photo not possible beyond what's already been done.  There has been a suggestion that the soldier was KIA with the Middlesex Regiment, whose badge shape seems to fit reasonably well given the reflected light.

[MaxD]

Henry William Bonwick 12 Middlesex was from Southborough, next town/village to Tunbridge Wells.  KIA 21 Oct 1917.  Was home for 4 months (medical) in early 1917.

 

Mother's taste in hats not recorded.

 

Max

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Prince of Wales Feathers are a possibility,  I've marked them in blue.

Beneath these though are a row of highlights, 4 or possibly 5, in a curve, concave upwards. (in red)

The problem with the Middlesex badge, is that any highlights on the Ich Dien scroll would form a line concave downwards.

And there would surely be voids visible above and below the Ich Dien scroll, above and below it?

 

(Is that another mobile phone mast going up on the hillside?   )

 

[MaxD]

Other facts about Henry William.  States previous service with 1st Volunteer Battalion Royal West Kents.  Has PS number, starts with 24 (Reserve) Bn Middx (formed from elements of 16 PS Bn).  No L Cpl appointment but may have been unpaid/acting to wear stripe?  Year of birth calculated as 1884.

 

Max