"Ireland was officially a 'theatre of war'" ?

[Jervis]

In Robert Graves' memoirs 'Goodbye to all that' he claims he did not have to wait in line to be demobilised with home service troops as he was by then (1918) based in Ireland. 

 

"Ireland was officially a 'theatre of war'; demobilisation from theatres of war had priority over home service demobilisation."

 

I have never seen Ireland referred to as theatre of war during the Great War and this surprises me a lot. 

 

Was Graves correct with this statement ? 

 

 

[Retlaw]

1 hour ago, Jervis said:

In Robert Graves' memoirs 'Goodbye to all that' he claims he did not have to wait in line to be demobilised with home service troops as he was by then (1918) based in Ireland. 

 

"Ireland was officially a 'theatre of war'; demobilisation from theatres of war had priority over home service demobilisation."

 

I have never seen Ireland referred to as theatre of war during the Great War and this surprises me a lot. 

 

Was Graves correct with this statement ? 

 

 

Well if Ireland was a theatre  of war,  how come men who served there did'nt get the same entitlement to medals as those who served on other war fronts.

[IPT]

We all know that Ireland was considered home service. It's still possible that they got precedence over the mainland for demobilization?

[Wexflyer]

3 hours ago, IPT said:

We all know that Ireland was considered home service. It's still possible that they got precedence over the mainland for demobilization?

 

Mainland meaning Europe, I presume.

[corisande]

2 hours ago, Wexflyer said:

 

Mainland meaning Europe, I presume. 

 

Yes, I smiled at that reference to the Mainland too.

 

Remember the apocryphal newspaper headline supposedly once read, "Fog in Channel; Continent Cut Off"

[IPT]

mainland Britain 

(ˈmeɪnˌlænd ˈbrɪtən)

 

noun

England, Wales, and Scotland excluding those adjacent islands governed from the mainland

 

Collins English Dictionary. 

 

 

Edited 10 August , 2018 by IPT
hyperlink nonsense

[corisande]

Where you mis-interpret the definition is that you are mistaking the "island of Britain, or Great Britain", ie the lot that you refer to above,  from the "British Isles" which include the "Island of Ireland"

 

between the Act of Union in 1800 and Irish Independence the country was the United Kingdom

 

The Acts of Union 1800 were parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.  Today if you consult your passport, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

 

Although Britain is an offshore island of Europe, Ireland is not, as much as the English would like to think so, an offshore island of Britain

 

Always a pleasure to put an Englishman right on this

[depaor01]

5 hours ago, corisande said:

Where you mis-interpret the definition is that you are mistaking the "island of Britain, or Great Britain", ie the lot that you refer to above,  from the "British Isles" which include the "Island of Ireland"

 

between the Act of Union in 1800 and Irish Independence the country was the United Kingdom

 

The Acts of Union 1800 were parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.  Today if you consult your passport, it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

 

Although Britain is an offshore island of Europe, Ireland is not, as much as the English would like to think so, an offshore island of Britain

 

Always a pleasure to put an Englishman right on this

I was about to post that mainland would have been correct for the time. Glad I didn't!

You've just put an Irishman (With some Norman contamination) right too. 

 

I've designed some exhibition panels for 1918 that I may have to erm... modify.

 

Thanks for that.

Dave

 

[corisande]

 

Always a pleasure to put an Irishman right as well

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

6 hours ago, corisande said:

Where you mis-interpret the definition is that you are mistaking the "island of Britain, or Great Britain", ie the lot that you refer to above,  from the "British Isles" which include the "Island of Ireland"

 

 

And it depends which "Great Britain" you are referring to- the geographical, or the political units.

Sir Fôn (Anglesey), Ynys Gybi (Holy Island, Holyhead), Ynys Wyth (Isle of Wight), Ynysoedd Heledd (Hebrides) and Ynys Wair (Lundy) are not parts of the geographical GB, whereas within common political usage, they are.

[kenf48]

Most of "Goodbye to All That', whilst a great read, has, as was later acknowledged by Graves, to be treated with caution.

 

In fact when the war ended Graves had a posting as an instructor at the 16th Officer Cadet Battalion Kinmel Park, Rhyl from where, on the night of the Armistice he went out, 'walking alone along the dyke above the marshes of Rhuddlan...cursing and sobbing and thinking of the dead'.(GTAT).

 

He then discovered that he would be entitled to a Government Grant of £200 a year while a student if he took up his Classics Exhibition at St John's College Oxford, with a baby on the way this was too good an opportunity to miss.  He learned that St John's would ask for him to be demobilised once he received a signed release from the Colonel of his Officer Cadet  Battalion. However it turned out not to be quite so straightforward and he realised he would need a signed release from the Colonel of his Battalion which was now stationed in Limerick.

He therefore travelled to Ireland under his own steam in mid-January 1919.  On his arrival he found that due to the troubles all demobilisation had been stopped.  However the telegram from the War Office authorising his demobilisation had arrived and provided he was on the 6.15 train that evening he would be able to leave but he needed the Colonel's signature and code marks from the Battalion demobilisation officer.  The latter were not supplied as Graves beloved the Adjutant was obstructing his demobilisation.  He therefore decided to make a run for it and caught the train.  On arrival in London his luck held and he was able to get his papers completed.

 

His demobilisation had nothing to do with whether or not Ireland was a 'theatre of war' which it was not but was a 'home' posting during the war. 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

2 small observations, which might cheer up Wex

 

1)  Great Britain is the lagest island of the British Isles. Until the early 19th Century the term "British Empire" meant the totality of the islands of the British Island, not the bits coloured red a bit later on.

2) As to perspectives of who is offshore to whom, then the title of an older scholarly book by Patrick O'Farrell sums it all up-"Ireland's English Question"

[Wexflyer]

It is all very simple really. Britain is the bit that blocks what would otherwise be a beautiful view of France from the mainland....

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

It is all very simple really. Britain is the bit that blocks what would otherwise be a beautiful view of France from the mainland....

 

 Alas, the Manx outlook is that both Britain and Ireland are outlying islands.   Wex- you should go off and look at Brendan Bradshaw's work- he calls the whole shabang "the British  Archipelago"

[Wexflyer]

5 hours ago, voltaire60 said:

 

 Alas, the Manx outlook is that both Britain and Ireland are outlying islands.   Wex- you should go off and look at Brendan Bradshaw's work- he calls the whole shabang "the British  Archipelago"

 

The late lamented Rev. Dr. may have suffered from a process of osmosis, or perhaps a surfeit of port in Queen's SCR? 

 

In any case, from where I like to stand, looking at the ferries to France, the view is obscured, and the route lengthened...

Edited 11 August , 2018 by Wexflyer

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Being a Citizen (by Birth) of Anglesey, I can honestly and confidently say that you are all wrong.

[Jervis]

On 10/08/2018 at 18:31, kenf48 said:

Most of "Goodbye to All That', whilst a great read, has, as was later acknowledged by Graves, to be treated with caution.

 

In fact when the war ended Graves had a posting as an instructor at the 16th Officer Cadet Battalion Kinmel Park, Rhyl from where, on the night of the Armistice he went out, 'walking alone along the dyke above the marshes of Rhuddlan...cursing and sobbing and thinking of the dead'.(GTAT).

 

He then discovered that he would be entitled to a Government Grant of £200 a year while a student if he took up his Classics Exhibition at St John's College Oxford, with a baby on the way this was too good an opportunity to miss.  He learned that St John's would ask for him to be demobilised once he received a signed release from the Colonel of his Officer Cadet  Battalion. However it turned out not to be quite so straightforward and he realised he would need a signed release from the Colonel of his Battalion which was now stationed in Limerick.

He therefore travelled to Ireland under his own steam in mid-January 1919.  On his arrival he found that due to the troubles all demobilisation had been stopped.  However the telegram from the War Office authorising his demobilisation had arrived and provided he was on the 6.15 train that evening he would be able to leave but he needed the Colonel's signature and code marks from the Battalion demobilisation officer.  The latter were not supplied as Graves beloved the Adjutant was obstructing his demobilisation.  He therefore decided to make a run for it and caught the train.  On arrival in London his luck held and he was able to get his papers completed.

 

His demobilisation had nothing to do with whether or not Ireland was a 'theatre of war' which it was not but was a 'home' posting during the war. 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Ken.

To be fair to Graves - the context was about him jumping the queue in the demobilisation centre in Wimbledon not the reason why he was demobilised. 

[John]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:13 AM, Wexflyer said:

 

Mainland meaning Europe, I presume.

Well said!

[BullerTurner]

Don't forget that the British Isles belong to Jersey, as part of the original conquering Norman state...

[Uncle George]

Lord Denning as always was wholly correct when in Bulmer v Bollinger (1974) he made the important distinction between “matters which concern solely the mainland of England”, and “matters with a European element”:

 

“ ... The treaty does not touch any of the matters which concern solely the mainland of England and the people in it. These are still governed by English law. They are not affected by the Treaty. But when we come to matters with a European element, the Treaty is like an incoming tide. It flows into the estuaries and up the rivers. It cannot be held back ...”

 

To sum up: there is ‘Europe’; and there is ‘the mainland of England’.

 

What a great man he was.

 

Uncle George LL.B (Hons).

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Uncle George said:

What a great man he was.

 

Uncle George LL.B (Hons).

 

    But obviously not that good at geography -  Seems not to have noticed the existence of Scotland or Wales (which goes with England per jurisdiction). Thankfully, Denning taught Maths. when a schoolteacher- Wykehamists have been spared his lack of world view. I suppose the fact that he was a  Great War veteran  must mean we give him some tolerance on GWF-  Though God only knows what his artillery ranging was aiming at in France,given his lack of knowledge of other countries. Whenever I used to watch him in the Court of Appeal he appeared completely insane-and the other judges on the panel would groan when he started on a rant and cranked his Hampshire burr up a gear.

    Personally, I prefer the Barnsley Market case for light reading 

 

Just out of interest, was the declaration of war in 1914 read out anywhere officially in Ireland, as per on the steps of the Royal Exchange in England?

[David Filsell]

No, simply being contiguous I would have thought.

[Ron Clifton]

On 27/02/2019 at 16:36, voltaire60 said:

Whenever I used to watch him in the Court of Appeal he appeared completely insane-and the other judges on the panel would groan when he started on a rant and cranked his Hampshire burr up a gear.

In my early commuting days I read The Times on the train, including the law reports. I was always amused when one of them said "The Court of Appeal by a majority, the Master of the Rolls dissenting ..."

 

Ron

[Captain RHW]

Late to the party here but I'm re-reading a bit of Denning as he is one of those in my book Noble Savages (working on the paperback edition).  I think you're a bit harsh.  Denning was a man of his time - his views of foreigners etc was standard stuff for anyone born in 1899.  'England' in those days was shorthand for the whole UK - it was the rise of Scottish Nationalism in the 1930s that changed that (led by Sir Compton McKenzie, the Scottish equivalent of what my Irish friend would call a 'Plastic Paddy' as he was English through and through). 

 

 Not to defend Denning's views, but there's no doubt people a century hence will say the same sort of things about us. Some of his judgments were pretty eccentric but others have lasted better than many of his contemporaries.  

[David Filsell]

Allowance must always be made when writing about Graves account of his war like many other who wrote a biography if his wartime experiences that  he was by intent or by accident frequently an unreliable witness.