SS WSindermere

[lizziebee]

I am trying to find out more information about William James Baxter. master mariner, who apparently lied about his age after losing two of his sons at the start of the War, and served in the Merchant Navy as 2nd mate on the SS Windemere. this was a coal steamer and was sunk off the coast of Minorca in June 1916. "Dorset Girl" wrote in 2007 that her grandfather was with others on one lifeboat and the captain with others on a second boat, but that William's crew did not survive. His name is on the Tower Hill Memorial, but in the book inside he is listed as being 56/7, whereas in reality he was actually 66/7. I know he was born on Christmas day 1850. His son, also William, died at sea during the War, but I can find no details about which ship he was on.

I am his great granddaughter, son of Jim Ritson, who was the son of Elizabeth May, William's youngest child. I did put up a post in 2011 about this, but had no response from Dorset Girl or anyone else. any help with information would be most welcome.

[DavidOwen]

Hi there Lizzie

 

If you know where the Williams were born there may be a medal index card for either or both of them in this list? http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=William&_ln=Baxter&_pl=&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=BT+351&_cr2=MT+9&_col=200&_dt=BW&_hb=tna

 

Have you checked family history sites (Ancestry, FMP etc.) for a date of death for the younger William. If you have that then sites such as this https://fishingboatheritage.co.uk/men-and-boats-lost-to-the-sea/ and http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyBritishBVLS.htm can help narrow down the list of vessels concerned.

 

Sadly Dorset Girl hasn't been on the forum since December 2007 - however now you have 2 posts recorded you can send her a personal message which will trigger an email to her registered email address which she may still be using (a long shot but worth a go).

 

Good luck with your search

 

Regards

 

David

[MerchantOldSalt]

Lizziebee,

Assuming it is William James Baxter born Wisbech 25 Dec 1850, his Certificates of Competency as Mate and Master are available on Ancestry, and the applications to the Board of Trade show many of the ships on which he served up to the date of obtaining his Master's ticket on 8 Oct 1886, there is rather an interesting affidavit in his handwriting explaining why he left out his middle name from the application, a most heinous crime in the eyes of the Board of Trade!

 

As David suggests,there is also a Medal Card for him BT 351/1/8518 in the National archives which you can download for a small charge, his place of birth is incorrectly put as Wisbeck.

 

I can't find him on the Crew Lists available for Windermere in 1915, but it may be a different Windermere or he was not on her in 1915.

 

I note the 1911 census has him living at 5 Floyd road Charlton Kent, and whilst Elizabeth May is mentioned, his sons are Arthur Balfour and Ernest Richard aged 17 and 16, there is no William mentioned?  You may need to clarify that one before we can continue the search?

 

Will keep looking

 

Tony 

 

Edited 5 August , 2018 by MerchantOldSalt

[lizziebee]

I have a lot of information about William James Baxter born 1850. I went along to the Greenwich Naval Museum where they gave me a list all the ships he had served on before getting his MM. I have just sent all the paperwork off to the CWGC to have his age re-entered as 66, as I think he lied about his age when he re-joined the Merchant Navy after the death of two of his sons. I can find nothing at all about his eldest son, again William James, who we think was just lost overboard in a fierce storm, don't know which ship or whereabouts. No trace of him, only information I have is from the Dorset Girl note made on this forum in 2007. I have the medal card for William snr. but not William jnr.Thanks for all your help - I will keep digging!

Edited 7 August , 2018 by lizziebee

[Guest]

Hi Lizzie,

 

I am Eunice, grand daughter of Ethel, one of Elizabeth’s older sisters.  We knew each other as children when you came to visit with your parents (my dad being you dad’s cousin Dick).  We last saw each other at your father’s funeral.  Anyway, I still have some of the family memorabilia which includes some letters written by both William Snr and William Jnr so, as a starter, I can let you have the following update.

 

Great grandfather was, as you know, born on Dec 25 1850 and, as annotated in the family bible, the eldest of 6 children four of whom died in infancy.  When he first went back into the merchant navy he served on the SS Heartsease before transferring to the Windermere which, as you also know, was sunk in the summer of 1916.  Both ships sailed out of Methil and Hartlepool.  He is, as you say, on the memorial at Tower Hill and, I believe, also on one in the north of England although I haven’t seen that one.

 

Re great Uncle Will, I only have 3 letters from him to my grandad (Reg) all dated March 1915.  He was serving on the SS Glenby which, during that month, sailed from Dublin to Newport South Wales.  As at 25th March they were at anchor in Newport and due to sail the following day.  I know the Glenby was sunk in St George’s Channel on 17th August 1915 with the loss of 2 lives.  What I haven’t been able to find out is if he was one of the fatalities or if he survived.  If the latter, where did he go to?

 

Re great Uncle Arthur, he served in the Buffs and trained in Aldershot prior to going to Northern France.  He was stationed in Hulluch just north of Lens and spent some time in the trenches.  He was killed in the Battle of Loos and he is name appears on the Loos Memorial which surrounds the Dud Corner Cemetery just west of Lens on the D943 Route De Bethune.  As you enter the cemetery, he is on the left hand side panel 19, if memory serves.  

 

Re great Uncle Ernie, he served in both wars and died in 1968 (although he lived in Ashford Middx, not Ashford Kent).  He used to come to stay with us so I have fond memories of him.

 

I hope the above is of help to you.  Please let me know.  

 

Eunice

[lizziebee]

Wow! what a surprise! Of course I remember you especially from when we were kids! I am Gail, daughter of Jim and Alice, and I do remember you coming to dad's funeral. My husband Alastair and I were about to go over to France to lay flowers at Arthur Baxter's name and at the same place is my father's father's brother, James Bede Ritson. (My dad was named after him.) Alastair has been doing research on the names on our WW1 list in the memorial chapel at All Saints' Church, Eastbourne, and we had found 10 were commemorated in cemeteries near Loos, so we were going to leave flowers from the church. Three days seemed enough time to get to all of them. Unfortunately I managed to trip backwards in the garden on the Saturday before we were due to go, and I have fractured my pelvis, so everything had to be cancelled. We will go in 2019 - not the 100 anniversary year as I had hoped, but I really want to be able to walk about and see everything.

 

Can't understand why there is no listing of William junior. I assume the Glenby was sunk by enemy action, so why his name is not there is a mystery. I was told that sea-men were not listed if they died in an accident at sea and were only mentioned if it was the result of enemy action.

 

My dad was executor to Uncle Ernie, who was in the Merchant navy. I have his medals, and I remember dad saying that as he was quite a small man he was in the engine areas as a stoker, because he could get into cramped places.

Do you have the family Bible? As William's parents did not sign their names but put crosses on their marriage certificate, I am amazed there is one, with names and dates! Is there any chance that you could scan and email the letters you have? All Saints' is holding a special service on November 11th, and we have all been asked if we have any memorabilia to exhibit. I have some photographs from my mother's side, of her father and his two brothers, but anything you have relating to the Baxters would be fantastic. My email address is ganda@nwk.org.uk or snailmail to 18, Columbus Drive, Eastbourne, East Sussex, BN23 6RR (Gail Ball)

[lizziebee]

Whoops! didn't sign off! Too much to take in!

 

Thank you for all the information, Eunice - amazing where this forum takes us! If I find out anything else about William Jnr I will let you know.

 

Gail

[Guest]

Hi Gail, I wondered if it was you or your sister.  I couldn’t work out who Dorsetgirl could be unless it is Aunt Winn’s daughter.  I was going to reply to this a couple of years ago but we had a few things going on which took over our lives (I had some ill health and whilst recovering my brother, Alex, died suddenly so things got pushed to one side).  I do have the old family bible and will try to scan the front page and the letters but they are not particularly legible and take a little deciphering.  The one I have from Arthur to Nanny is barely legible as it was written in that funny indelible pencil which has faded considerably.  Plus it is really sad.  

 

As as far as I am aware the Glenby was sunk by enemy action so it is strange that Uncle Will is not named if he was one of the fatalities.  The only other place I can think of but have not tried is Ropners, who were the owners of the shipping fleet. They may have records of crew who were killed as they lost a lot of vessels.

 

Our cousin Heather (Beryl’s youngest daughter) has just tracked down Aunty Jean (now 93) your Dad’s cousin who emigrated to Australia in the early 50’s which is how I came back to the forum.  So glad I did.

 

We are just about to go on hols so I probably won’t get this done until we get back but promise I will.  We are now in Fleet and it would be great to catch up at some point.  

 

By the way, I also have 2 ‘death pennies’ one for William James Baxter (presumably great grandad) and one for Arthur Baxter. I expect there are other bits around as there is a box of ‘stuff’ in the loft which I can’t get to at the moment but this might be the incentive we need to do some sorting!

 

Will be in touch and hope the pelvis is healing well - sounds painful.

 

Eunice x