Molasses, Rust & US M 1917 Helmet

[JMB1943]

About 18 months ago, I bought a US M 1917 helmet shell (

It sits on a non-illuminated, black table top with other similarly drab P.07 bayonets/scabbards, mess tin, heavy wire cutters.

The posts by Peregrinus regarding the restoration of a Brodie last year, and more recently a Stahlhelm this year showed me that I did not have to live with the ugly finish of the M 1917 shell.

I did not want to set up an electrolysis unit in the garage, because of explosive potential of hydrogen in a closed space with potential sources of sparks (fridge door, garage-door-opener motor).

A search for alternative methods of rust removal brought up citric acid (as nicely demonstrated by Peregrinus) and molasses (at about 1:8 dilution with water).

Having molasses, but not citric acid, in the pantry decided my course of action.

Since the helmet is only a relic shell (no pad or chinstrap) I had no qualms about sacrificing it to my curiosity.

All work was done outside in the Florida high summer (temps. 70 F night to 90+F day; humidity ~90%).

 

Day 1: Initial Wt = 792 g; helmet placed in 11.6 L tapwater + 255 g molasses from supermarket

Day 2: No H2 evolution in the AM; bought more molasses; added additional 1113 g molasses to give about 1:8.5 dilution

Day 3 - 8: Steady evolution of H2; shape of helmet was obvious on surface; scrubbed with rough kitchen pad;  damp wt = 752 g

Day 11: Very brisk evolution of H2; Wt = 721 g damp

Day 11 - 18: Very brisk evolution of H2; Wt = 674 g damp

Day 21: Concerned with the ongoing brisk evolution of H2 and loss of weight, removed helmet, rinsed, scrubbed with 0000 wire wool, but could not remove the ~20% of rough paint that remained on surface. Set the helmet in a closed BBQ grille @ 500 F and dried for 5 min.  Removed helmet, cooled to ambient inside the house; surface then showed some orange/red characteristic of flash-rusting; coated with 3-in-1 oil and wiped off excess. Helmet now has a light/medium to dark brown finish, with a slight sheen from the oil.

Final Wt = 670 g

Weight loss = 122 g (~4.4 oz)

The molasses tank now still shows H2 evolution, and there is a thin layer of crud (presumably mix of rust and paint) on the bottom.

Now I am considering my options.................leave as is or paint...........

The stamp of the manufacturer is now quite distinct (XHD), as is the copper suspension rivet at the crown.

 

If I were to repeat the exercise, I would probably

1) pay closer attention to the transition from "steady" to "very brisk" evolution of hydrogen.

2) have paint stripper or a coarser grade of wire wool to hand.

 

Top photo is pre-treatment, 2nd and 3rd are post-treatment.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Dave66]

39 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

About 18 months ago, I bought a US M 1917 helmet shell (

It sits on a non-illuminated, black table top with other similarly drab P.07 bayonets/scabbards, mess tin, heavy wire cutters.

The posts by Peregrinus regarding the restoration of a Brodie last year, and more recently a Stahlhelm this year showed me that I did not have to live with the ugly finish of the M 1917 shell.

I did not want to set up an electrolysis unit in the garage, because of explosive potential of hydrogen in a closed space with potential sources of sparks (fridge door, garage-door-opener motor).

A search for alternative methods of rust removal brought up citric acid (as nicely demonstrated by Peregrinus) and molasses (at about 1:8 dilution with water).

Having molasses, but not citric acid, in the pantry decided my course of action.

Since the helmet is only a relic shell (no pad or chinstrap) I had no qualms about sacrificing it to my curiosity.

All work was done outside in the Florida high summer (temps. 70 F night to 90+F day; humidity ~90%).

 

Day 1: Initial Wt = 792 g; helmet placed in 11.6 L tapwater + 255 g molasses from supermarket

Day 2: No H2 evolution in the AM; bought more molasses; added additional 1113 g molasses to give about 1:8.5 dilution

Day 3 - 8: Steady evolution of H2; shape of helmet was obvious on surface; scrubbed with rough kitchen pad;  damp wt = 752 g

Day 11: Very brisk evolution of H2; Wt = 721 g damp

Day 11 - 18: Very brisk evolution of H2; Wt = 674 g damp

Day 21: Concerned with the ongoing brisk evolution of H2 and loss of weight, removed helmet, rinsed, scrubbed with 0000 wire wool, but could not remove the ~20% of rough paint that remained on surface. Set the helmet in a closed BBQ grille @ 500 F and dried for 5 min.  Removed helmet, cooled to ambient inside the house; surface then showed some orange/red characteristic of flash-rusting; coated with 3-in-1 oil and wiped off excess. Helmet now has a light/medium to dark brown finish, with a slight sheen from the oil.

Final Wt = 670 g

Weight loss = 122 g (~4.4 oz)

The molasses tank now still shows H2 evolution, and there is a thin layer of crud (presumably mix of rust and paint) on the bottom.

Now I am considering my options.................leave as is or paint...........

The stamp of the manufacturer is now quite distinct (XHD), as is the copper suspension rivet at the crown.

 

If I were to repeat the exercise, I would probably

1) pay closer attention to the transition from "steady" to "very brisk" evolution of hydrogen.

2) have paint stripper or a coarser grade of wire wool to hand.

 

Top photo is pre-treatment, 2nd and 3rd are post-treatment.

 

Regards,

JMB

I have to say, good results so far and what a transformation.

Looking at the previous threads, what paint finish have you decided on? The factory finish dark green, or the textured yellow/green.

 

Dave.

[JMB1943]

Dave,

 

That, as they say, is the $64 question!

The jackdaw in me wants something bright & shiny, which would be a glossy dark green as seen in Andrew's photo.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Dave66]

5 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Dave,

 

That, as they say, is the $64 question!

The jackdaw in me wants something bright & shiny, which would be a glossy dark green as seen in Andrew's photo.

 

Regards,

JMB

Looking forward to seeing Further updates.

 

Dave.

 

 

[reese williams]

JMB,

Very nice results. The idea of blowing up your garage by igniting the hydrogen from electrolysis is very much an old wive's tale. If you are using an open top container for your electrolysis vessel you simply cannot accumulate enough hydrogen to pose any kind of danger and certainly not from sparks from an enclosed device like a refrigerator light switch or garage door opener. Even by trying to capture the hydrogen you would be very hard pressed to make a bang. Hydrogen is an elusive little ******. I routinely use a 30 gallon plastic garbage can or large 36" x 20" plastic boxes as an electrolysis tank to derust  large three burner camping stoves in my garage. The first time I encountered the idea that this was possibly dangerous I decided to find out for myself. After all SWMBO does frown on my blowing up parts of the domicile. After a bit of reading up I fired up the electrolysis set up, let it build up a good head of rusty froth and bubbles on the surface and tried to ignite it. Absolutley nothing. Not even the nice little bangs they got in the attached video when holding the bubble in their hands.

Here is a link to an electrolysis thread on the Coleman Collector's Forum where I posted a couple of videos about the reality of burning hydrogen. I post there as cottage_hill_bill.

The post is about half way through the thread.

http://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/electrolysis-inside-fount-6809116?highlight=hydrogen&pid=1292329934

 

Best of luck with the helmet project. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

[JMB1943]

Interested 

 

Posted 18 hours ago

  On 22/07/2018 at 23:24, JMB1943 said:

3 weeks in molasses solution it has lost about 4 oz in weight

I'm coming to this thread a bit late, but it is very interesting to see what can be done.

Here's my take on the comment above (based on my O-level chemistry no less!)Rust is heavier than bare steel (Fe = 26, O = 8, therefore Fe203   = 76 and the oxygen will be 24/76, i.e. will add about one third extra weight at the surface, where the rust is. 

 

Thanks for your input, but you have used atomic numbers for Fe and O, rather than the required Atomic Weights (56 & 16, respectively); however, this changes the ratio only slightly.

 

Therefore any de-rusting process should result in a lighter weight. 

Some other experts on the Forum might add/clarify/differ, but I think you can be reassured by the weight loss, removing oxygen, not steel, and not doing any damage

 

This is not quite correct because both the Fe and the O components of Fe2O3, not just the O, are removed when an item is de-rusted.

 

I have done some very basic calculations based on the British specs (max. wt of shell = 27 oz/ 765 g; thickness = 0.036 inch/ 0.91 mm), and density of steel = 7.9 g/mL.

A helmet shell is then equivalent to a 12.8 inch square (105703 sq. mm) of steel.

Suppose a layer of steel of 0.1 mm is lost to rust, from one surface only or 0.05 mm is lost from each of the two surfaces.

This amounts to 83.5 g of iron, which will form 119 g of rust (Fe2O3), and rusting increases the helmet weight by 35.5 g.

The helmet wt = 765 + 35.5 = 800.5 g, rounded to 801 g.

De-rusting with molasses should remove 119 g, to give a final wt = 682 g.

My final observed wt = 670 g, which is in the ballpark of the calculation for the supposed layer thickness of Fe consumed.

NOTE

1. No account taken of weight of chinstrap bales & D-rings OR cork/sand finish OR added rim.

2. No account taken of 12-13% manganese content of the steel.

3. No account taken of true formula of rust = Fe2O3.nH2O, where nH2O indicates variable number of moles of hydration.

4. The true initial weight of my M1917 shell is unknown.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[JMB1943]

On 24/07/2018 at 10:16, reese williams said:

JMB,

Very nice results. The idea of blowing up your garage by igniting the hydrogen from electrolysis is very much an old wive's tale. If you are using an open top container for your electrolysis vessel you simply cannot accumulate enough hydrogen to pose any kind of danger and certainly not from sparks from an enclosed device like a refrigerator light switch or garage door opener. Even by trying to capture the hydrogen you would be very hard pressed to make a bang. Hydrogen is an elusive little ******. I routinely use a 30 gallon plastic garbage can or large 36" x 20" plastic boxes as an electrolysis tank to derust  large three burner camping stoves in my garage. The first time I encountered the idea that this was possibly dangerous I decided to find out for myself. After all SWMBO does frown on my blowing up parts of the domicile. After a bit of reading up I fired up the electrolysis set up, let it build up a good head of rusty froth and bubbles on the surface and tried to ignite it. Absolutley nothing. Not even the nice little bangs they got in the attached video when holding the bubble in their hands.

Here is a link to an electrolysis thread on the Coleman Collector's Forum where I posted a couple of videos about the reality of burning hydrogen. I post there as cottage_hill_bill.

The post is about half way through the thread.

http://www.colemancollectorsforum.com/post/electrolysis-inside-fount-6809116?highlight=hydrogen&pid=1292329934

 

Best of luck with the helmet project. Looking forward to seeing the finished product.

Reese,

 

Sorry for the VERY belated reply, but thanks for posting your experiences and reassurances.

I did have reason to fire up my battery charger yesterday, and actually had to disconnect in a hurry as it started smoking and emitting the characteristic smell of burning insulation!

Gave it the deep six.

The helmet is still as shown above, and I may leave as is........or not.....

Regards,

JMB

[Interested]

Hi,

Thanks for the response and clarification; it shows my "O" Level isn't quite what it was after 50-odd years !! 

Principle of weight loss in theory and in practice validated!

[trajan]

 

 

On 23/07/2018 at 22:59, JMB1943 said:

... A search for alternative methods of rust removal brought up citric acid (as nicely demonstrated by Peregrinus) and molasses (at about 1:8 dilution with water).

 

Molasses.... Mmmmm.... Is that the same as Turkish pekmez? Fruit juice (any kind) concentrated into a syrup often referred to as Turkish molasses? And how on earth does it work? Wondering if it might deal with some rusted scabbards I have... And, if not watched, will it pit the metal, as the infamous coke treatment can do if not carefully monitored... Is the citric acid method the same as the coke method? 

[Chasemuseum]

Look at the Wikipedia page on molasses. The product used to clean rust steel is the "blackstrap molasses". This has a low sugar content, some starch and a huge range of chemicals. It can be  very chemically active. Under certain conditions it starts to froth (for no apparent reason) and will tear the roof off the storage tanks if the do not have suitable vents, a 1,000 tonne tank needs several square metres of vent area.  At one leaking tank I had to wade through molasses half way up to my knees. Over the following couple of weeks my safety boots literally fell apart as the residual molasses ate through the leather - I had hosed them down after the site visit but did not think that anything was required to chemically inert the molasses.

 

Because molasses is such a chemical cocktail, I am really not too sure what the actual process is. I would be careful of it attacking brass, zinc and aluminium and completely dissolving these.

 

A little more aggressive and requiring a bit of care is phosphoric acid. This is found in most chemical pre-treatments prior to painting steel. Care has to be used as it will leave an iron-phosphate coating which makes steel look grey if you leave an object immersed too long. Thoroughly wash the object in soapy hot water as the treatment will normally not penetrate grease.  Then dip in the acid, check regularly. When happy with the result was thoroughly in copious amounts of fresh water. Thoroughly dry and apply a coat of a suitable protective oil. Same warning about accidentally dissolving the more reactive metals.

 

Cheers

Ross 

[trajan]

Thanks Ross - will look up these things. Never come across blackstrap molasses before and I won't ask why you were wandering around in it!  I did wonder if molasses was anything like the black treacly stuff we used to have on toast in the UK when I was much younger!

[JMB1943]

4 hours ago, trajan said:

Thanks Ross - will look up these things. Never come across blackstrap molasses before and I won't ask why you were wandering around in it!  I did wonder if molasses was anything like the black treacly stuff we used to have on toast in the UK when I was much younger!

Trajan,

 

Yes, molasses is the “black treacly stuff”, leftover from the extraction of sugar from sugar-cane.

As Ross says, it must contain a whole slew of chemicals.

I used it successfully on the helmet, and also on a GW mess tin which I treated on two separate occasions.

The second treatment (not really necessary, it turns out) resulted in pinhole perforations in the base.

When I use it now, I dissolve the molasses in very hot water so that the reaction starts pretty quickly.

A disadvantage of the molasses method is the resulting strong, sulfurous smell—-you don’t want to do this inside your apartment!

 I think that in your case, if you have a balcony you can do it, or in the archaeology lab at work.

Check the scabbards every 24 hrs , rinse well and lightly oil when finished.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

[trajan]

Thanks JMB. I think I'll try it on one of my ersatz during the exam period.