mstowe Posted 11 July , 2018 Share Posted 11 July , 2018 Does anyone know where the log books of the Beamsville flight training school (School of Aerial Fighting) in Ontario would be found? RAF doesn't have any, UK archives doesn't have any, Local museum doesn't have any, Library and Archives Canada doesn't have any (they have pics but no documents). It's unbelievable to me that they don't exist. I want to look up what was happening on a specific date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quemerford Posted 11 July , 2018 Share Posted 11 July , 2018 This any use: http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.lac_mikan_135766 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 11 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2018 Will investigate this, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quemerford Posted 11 July , 2018 Share Posted 11 July , 2018 It will take a long time to be sure: Beamsville returns unlikely-looking hits but 'gunnery' (for instance) looks less generic as a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 11 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2018 Just checked out the list of "Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books" at LAC, and this list shows up, but it's 1936 ->, no records show for WW1. I've even contacted a couple of my contacts in the forces but no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quemerford Posted 11 July , 2018 Share Posted 11 July , 2018 It would be RFC or RFC Canada though surely, rather than RCAF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 11 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2018 Well "Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books" was the header at the link you sent, so I searched with that. Yes, you'd think RFC or RAF, but nothing shows up for this either. Someone told me these records would have gone to England but I can't find them there either. There were guys at the Beamsville camp from RCAF (the guy I'm looking for was RCAF) and some officers there were even RNAS, but yes, you'd think the logs would be RAF. They simply didn't throw these things out!...gotta be somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 11 July , 2018 Admin Share Posted 11 July , 2018 A little local info here http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM806Z_Signs_of_History_Royal_Flying_Corps_School_of_Aerial_Fighting_Beamsville_ON Might it help to let the Pals know what date and who may be involved in the info you are looking for as they come at problems from so many different angles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 11 July , 2018 Admin Share Posted 11 July , 2018 (edited) Might be worth getting in touch with the gentleman named here if the site will put you in touch http://cniagara.ca/events/details/the-beamsville-school-of-arial-gunnery A search pointed to a page in this site but needed a login I don't have - again possibly worth a contact request http://www.rafweb.org/ Edited 11 July , 2018 by DavidOwen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 11 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 11 July , 2018 45 minutes ago, DavidOwen said: Might be worth getting in touch with the gentleman named here if the site will put you in touch http://cniagara.ca/events/details/the-beamsville-school-of-arial-gunnery Yes, thanks, I have been in touch with Hugh Halliday before about another related issue. Didn't specifically ask him about Beamsville log books, so I'll send him another email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanS Posted 15 July , 2018 Share Posted 15 July , 2018 On 11/07/2018 at 02:33, mstowe said: Does anyone know where the log books of the Beamsville flight training school (School of Aerial Fighting) in Ontario would be found? RAF doesn't have any, UK archives doesn't have any, Local museum doesn't have any, Library and Archives Canada doesn't have any (they have pics but no documents). It's unbelievable to me that they don't exist. I want to look up what was happening on a specific date. mstowe, It's quite conceivable that the records don't exist. In all the years I've been looking into the RFC/RAF Canada program I've never come across archival material relating to a particular school (be it No. 4 or any of the training camps/wings), let alone any records for an instructor. The Canadian training scheme was an Imperial initiative, albeit one house and staffed in Canada - most of the program's records are held at LAC, but as you've noted there are no log books of any kind in these fonds. U of T also has some records, but again nothing pertaining specifically to Beamsville. Your best best is likely finding a cadet's logbook that roughly covers the period you're interested in. If this is for the mid 1918 period, then you have a few to chose from. Sources from earlier cadets are harder to come by, as they tended to graduate and head overseas. Is there a particular pilot/date you're interested in? Cheers, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 23 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2018 On 15/07/2018 at 17:16, JonathanS said: mstowe, It's quite conceivable that the records don't exist. In all the years I've been looking into the RFC/RAF Canada program I've never come across archival material relating to a particular school (be it No. 4 or any of the training camps/wings), let alone any records for an instructor. The Canadian training scheme was an Imperial initiative, albeit one house and staffed in Canada - most of the program's records are held at LAC, but as you've noted there are no log books of any kind in these fonds. U of T also has some records, but again nothing pertaining specifically to Beamsville. Your best best is likely finding a cadet's logbook that roughly covers the period you're interested in. If this is for the mid 1918 period, then you have a few to chose from. Sources from earlier cadets are harder to come by, as they tended to graduate and head overseas. Is there a particular pilot/date you're interested in? Cheers, Jonathan The period I'm interested in is July/early August 1918. Yes, I'll have to look for a cadet log from that period, you never know. I have a photograph of a crash at Beamsville which happened exactly 100 years ago (today maybe) so I have been very anxious to track the crash and the specific date. It had to have been recorded. There are a few pics of Beamsville crashes in a book (title I forget) but nothing relating to mine. But I think you are correct, they just don't exist. Still seems inconceivable to me that someone opened the trash can and put the records in but that seems to be what happened. I found the same thing when researching the RAF West Hamilton Armament school, couldn't find a single record. I have sent Hugh Halliday a message as he has studied Beamsville, but I haven't heard back from him yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanS Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 mstowe, I'll check my files re July/August 1918 and see if I can dig anything up, but I wouldn't be so sure that a crash "had" to be recorded - especially if the cadet survived. The letters we have from the period (see Alan McLeod's for instance), give the impression that the entire training affair was loosely organized, at least at the airfield level. Cadets pranged aircraft on a regular basis and they seemed quite nonchalant about it. Rather than the books being chucked there's a fair chance they never existed to begin with, at least as far as crumpled JN-4s go. Training was short and tended to move by course, so it's quite conceivable that the officers were more concerned with getting the men on to the next part of the program/ensuring they passed the one they were in than with recording every crashed Canuck. Just supposition at this point, but it wouldn't surprise me if it panned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nieuport11 Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 Log books were certainly maintained by pilots - I have some relating to 78CTS, 79CTS, 82CTS, 88CTS, 90CTS, 91CTS, SoAG Canada and 'Y' CTS as well as photos of numerous prangs A few crash reports appear in the National Archives and some are on the RAF casualty cards - for example 5.7.18 and 16.7.18 at Camp Leaside, and C570 at Beamsville on 11.9.18 Records were certainly kept, but most training records for Canada, Egypt and the UK were destroyed after the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanS Posted 24 July , 2018 Share Posted 24 July , 2018 2 hours ago, nieuport11 said: Log books were certainly maintained by pilots - I have some relating to 78CTS, 79CTS, 82CTS, 88CTS, 90CTS, 91CTS, SoAG Canada and 'Y' CTS as well as photos of numerous prangs A few crash reports appear in the National Archives and some are on the RAF casualty cards - for example 5.7.18 and 16.7.18 at Camp Leaside, and C570 at Beamsville on 11.9.18 Records were certainly kept, but most training records for Canada, Egypt and the UK were destroyed after the war. Personal logs were certainly kept by cadets/pilots, but I've never seen any reference to School logs. I've just done a quick dig through the RFC/RAF Canada files from LAC (Vols 2040-2042) and there is no crash data therein. Plenty on development of the training scheme, expenditures and plans, transfers of trained cadets to the UK, etc., but no School/CTS records to speak of, apart from the development/planning for the various locations (the various wings/schools). mstowe - If a specific incident is desired your best best is the route nieuport11 suggests: pilot log books, casualty cards, or similar records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 I did wonder how that worked. If a pilot (not a cadet) were to go to Beamsville while home on leave (for example), grab a plane just to do some flying and crash it, did anyone have to pay for that plane? It sounds like they just trashed it and moved on to the next plane, and the pilot would just walk away. Yes this pilot did survive. re the log, even if the crash wasn't recorded, even knowing the names of anyone who was there at the time, officers, would really help. Not that it matters, but I even have the plane number, Curtiss says there are no records that would track a specific plane. Finding a log seems like a needle in a haystack but I'll keep looking. At least I know it was 100 years ago exactly, as "summer of 1918" is written on the photograph. Grateful for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 1 hour ago, mstowe said: I even have the plane number Let us know the plane number and possibly the type, you never know it may help. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 Would any newspapers have reported accidents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 3 minutes ago, johnboy said: Would any newspapers have reported accidents? Possibly and yes that's a good place to look. It would be a bit of a task though going through a month page by page of microfilm at the Hamilton library, but I've been known to do such crazy things. I could at least look at the social columns, you never know. It wouldn't be on front page, but hidden somewhere like that. Ya, I will check that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 25 July , 2018 Share Posted 25 July , 2018 If you have access to Find My Past you could use the newspaper search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 25 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2018 28 minutes ago, hmsk212 said: Let us know the plane number and possibly the type, you never know it may help. Steve C172, Curtiss JN-4 jenny, confirmed by Curtiss as a Canadian plane. Believe me, I've googled it. :). I have to say, I do know who the pilot is (but researching pilots for a client). My goal is to track the timing and events of the crash which I have narrowed down to a one month period, so someone roll back the tape of Beamsville starting right now, 100 years ago, and let's sit back and watch. If only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstowe Posted 26 July , 2018 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2018 2 hours ago, johnboy said: If you have access to Find My Past you could use the newspaper search Yes I do have access, they only have a few western Canadian papers there, no southern Ontario papers. But I checked anyway, nothing jumped out, but thanks. I searched proquest too (Toronto papers). I'll keep looking around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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