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laughton

Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery Case #1: South Irish Horse

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laughton

 

The part of the Forum for "Cemeteries and Memorials" has the two sub-sections:

There does not appear to be a section that deals specifically with the individual cemeteries. I checked the main index and it does not exist there either. Perhaps there should be a sub-section within this section that deals with just the cemeteries or memorials, without a link to a specific individual? For now I have placed this in the "Recovering the Fallen".

 

OKAY I SEE NOW THAT THE CEMETERIES AND MEMORIALS ARE IN THE MAIN LIST NOT IN THE SUB-SECTIONS. ALSO SINCE OTHERS ARE APPEARING IN THIS CEMETERY, I HAVE CHANGED THE TITLE SO THIS ONE DEALS ONLY WITH THE SOUTH IRISH HORSE UNKNOWN.

 

This topic originates from topics regarding:

 

As noted above I have now separated the topic as there is at least one other identifiable unknown - see:

 

 

The Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery is important to the two topics mentioned above because it contains the men that were exhumed from the ORIGINAL Ste. Emilie British Cemetery, Villers-Faucon which differs from the newer Ste. Emilie Valley Cemetery, Villers-Faucon.

 

There are two statements in the CWGC database about the concentrations to the Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery. The first quote is an extract of what is stated on the page for the current Ste. Emilie Valley Cemetery, Villers-Faucon and the second quote is from the Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery. It appears that some concentrations from the original cemetery went to both of the new cemeteries, albeit at different times. The question to be answered is whether there is information contained in the associated COG-BR and SPEC EXH documents to tell us more about who was moved to each cemetery and if there is information about which UNKNOWNS might be on the Special Memorials. For example, we need to determine if 2nd Lt. H. V. Moore 6th Bn Connaught Rangers, attached to the 48th Trench Mortar Battery, is really buried in the Ste. Emilie Valley Cemetery or not (GRRF 2044449). If he is, then we have an answer to the Lieutenant Crofton case. If he is not, we have to assume he could be in the Villers-Faucon Communal Cemetery Extension.

 

Quote

Villers-Faucon was captured by the 5th Cavalry Division on 27 March 1917, lost on 22 March 1918, and retaken by the III Corps on 7 September 1918. On the site of this cemetery at the Armistice, there were three large graves of Commonwealth soldiers buried by the Germans, which now form part of Plot I. The remainder of the cemetery is composed almost entirely of graves brought in from an older cemetery of the same name or from the battlefields.

 

Quote

After the Armistice, a further 360 graves were brought in from the battlefields (of April 1917 and March and September 1918) surrounding the village and in 1930, the British graves from the following two cemeteries were brought in:- GOUY BRITISH CEMETERY (Aisne), was in the hamlet of Rue-Neuve (or Rue-du-Moulin), on the road from Gouy to Estrees. It stood in a paddock among pasture fields, close to a farmhouse. It was made by the 50th Division (as very recently reconstituted) in October 1918, and it contained the graves of 127 soldiers from the United Kingdom (almost all from that Division) and one from Australia; the dates of death were the 3rd-10th October, except for one soldier who died on the 18th. Le Catelet and Gouy were captured by the 50th Division on the 3rd October 1918. STE EMILIE BRITISH CEMETERY, VILLERS-FAUCON, stood in the grounds of the Chateau of Ste Emilie, between the house and the railway station. It was begun by the 42nd (East Lancashire) Division in May 1917, carried on by Cavalry and other units and Field Ambulances until March 1918, and used again by British and American troops in September-November 1918. It contained the graves of 196 United Kingdom soldiers, 108 American, 22 Australian and one South African (the American graves, mainly of the 107th and 108th Infantry Regiments, were removed to Somme American Cemetery, Bony, before 1922). 

 

The text for the concentrations to Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery was a significant advancement on the cases, as it revealed the location of the cemetery "in the grounds of the Chateau of Ste Emilie, between the house and the railway station". I would suggest that places the old cemetery in the vicinity of 62c.E.18.d.8.2 and 62c.E.24.b.8.6.

 

Although not related to the cases currently under investigation, there is another group of men that were exhumed from the Gouy British Cemetery. I have downloaded all of the files, sorted them into the correct categories and uploaded them as ZIP files, as done for many of the other cemeteries. You can find these new ones here:

 

  1. GRRF 2052530-2052582.zip
  2. COG-BR 2052683-2052811.zip
  3. Exhumed from original Ste. Emilie British Cemetery.zip
  4. Exhumed from Gouy British Cemetery.zip

 

tcej0kb2xrlvif76g.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by laughton
I see now the cemeteries are in the main list of this topic.

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laughton

Was close on the location of the original Ste. Emilie British Cemetery, Villers Faucon. The COG-BR for some of the extrations places it at 62c.E.24.b.8.9. That is about where the "black dot" is in the trench map extract shown above.

 

doc2052807.JPG

 

It appears that we can identify the last man on the COG-BR shown above. The Special Exhumation shows that he was "South Irish Horse" and then it was changed to 7th Royal Irish Regiment. There is only ONE MAN of the South Irish Horse that is on the Pozieres Memorial serving in Royal Irish Regiment, specifically in the "A" Coy. 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. His name is Private William Llewellyn #73880. The Long Long Trail tells us that the unit was converted into infantry and became the 7th (Service) Battalion (South Irish Horse), the Royal Irish Regiment on 1 September 1917. The war diary (page 77 of 84) shows 49th Brigade, 16th Division for March 1918.

 

surname forename initials death 1 death 2 rank regiment secondary_regiment unit #
BICKER BERTIE B 22-03-18   Private Royal Dublin Fusiliers South Irish Horse 2nd Bn. '20875'
BUTLER JAMES J 21-03-18   Private Royal Dublin Fusiliers South Irish Horse 2nd Bn. '27485'
HENDERSON JAMES SHIPLEY J S 21-03-18   Private Royal Dublin Fusiliers South Irish Horse 2nd Bn. '20947'
LLEWELLYN WILLIAM W 28-03-18   Private Royal Irish Regiment South Irish Horse "A" Coy. 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '73880'
O'DEA DANIEL D 21-03-18 31-03-18 Private Royal Dublin Fusiliers South Irish Horse 1st Bn. '20961'

 

The war diary (page 78 of 84) places the regiment at Ronssoy on 21 March 1918. All of "A" and "B" Coy were killed or taken prisoner and so none got back to the regiment. To have died on the 28th, he would have had to have been one of those taken prisoner, but so far nothing on the ICRC database (many spellings of the name!). They fought their way back to St. Emilie on the 21st, so definitely in the area. They became part of a composite battalion of the 16th Division, fighting their way back to Tincourt Wood (war diary page 79 of 84). By 28 March 1918 they were far away at Hamel Wood at 62d.P.15.

 

I suspect that Prive Llewellyn was wounded and died in German hands on 28 March 1918, or he died on the 21st and was not recorded as buried until the 28th.

 

The CWGC database does show that there were 92 deaths in the 7th Bn. North Irish Horse in the March-April period. Only the one is listed as South Irish Horse as the secondary Regiment, but is that because that was fact or that the CWGC database is not complete? Llewellyn's number is 73880 and so the series of numbers belonging to the South Irish Horse needs to be checked. So far he is the only one with a 5 digit number in that range. That my not be the important number, as the CWGC database shows that his initial number was 25492. Perhaps the 5 digit 7 series was given to the imports? Does anyone know how the regimental numbers worked?

 

There are 68 men of the 7th Bn on the Pozieres Memorial and 3 on the Thiepval Memorial for this period. There is 1 known to be in the Ste. Emilie Valley Cemetery and 8 on the Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery. In addition, that cemetery has the men shown on the COG-BR for action in December 1917. Why was the SIH man on that list for December 1917 and then the affiliation and date struck out? Was it coincidence what he was buried with the men of the regiment or is that a clue that he is not a death from March 1918?

 

I checked the CWGC and all 22 of the 7th Bn North Irish Horse killed ion action in December 1917 have known burial locations (CWGC Link). If true, then our man was not an unknown from December 1917.

 

UPDATE NOTICE: The post that follows shows that this is a database error and that there was one man of the regiment that was UNKNOWN in December 1917 and he was from the South Irish Horse. It just shows we can't take the CWGC database as correct or complete.

 

doc2052813.JPG

 

These are the 22 in France from December 1917:

 

surname initials death rank

Royal Irish Regiment

# cemetery grave
ROE S G 01-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25742' ST. LEGER BRITISH CEMETERY G. 10.
BATEMAN S 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25026' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 34.
BURKE M 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25063' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 31.
COLLEARY J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25154' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 35.
CONDON J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25159' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 26.
DUGGAN M 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25239' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 33.
GIBSON R 12-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25309' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 45.
JACKSON J D 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25402' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 43.
KELLY R G 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25429' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 38.
MURRAY G T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25637' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 41.
McCARTHY F 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25523' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 37.
McCARTHY T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25524' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 33.
O'DEA D J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25665' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 28.
O'SHEA J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25687' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 30.
SHEA P 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25772' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 27.
SMITH J T 12-12-17 Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25785' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 39.
SWIFTE A 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25823' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 44.
THOMSON A B 12-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25838' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 40.
KINNEAR J 13-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25460' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 28.
McCABE W 14-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25519' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY III. G. 4.
COFFEY T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25096' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 19.
KENDALL C A 13-12-17 Private "C" Coy. 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25439' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 21.

 

Edited by laughton
added UPDATE NOTICE

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laughton

Another South Irish Horse showed up when going through the COG-BR documents. He is clearly marked on the COG-BR for Plot 2 Row A Grave 16. The CWGC lists him as Private W. O'Brien #25657 (21 March 1918), not as a Lance Corporal as noted on the COG-BR. I noticed him while looking for a reference to the CANADIAN in the next grave, who in the end turned out to be Gunner Rose of the Royal Field Artillery (GRRF 2052546).

 

doc2052700.JPG

 

Interesting side on that GRRF how many known soldiers on the COG-BR (shown below for O'Brien) were changed to UBS on the GRRF. I think that is because he turned out to be Private Thomas Kenny #41286 who is buried in Plot 2 Row D Grave 8 of that cemetery. That also shows on COGBR 2052683. That starts another loop, as that COG-BR also has another South Irish Horse - Serjeant F. Stone #25809  in 2.D.20 (21 March 1918). That blows a hole in the "Secondary Regiment" case above, as clearly he was identified as SIH but that did not carry over to the CWGC database. As such, we can not rely on what the CWGC has listed, each man would need to be checked, making it all the more likely that the SIH in the first post was one from December 1917 not March 1918.

 

That gives us at least two additional SIH in the cemetery from March 1918. A search of the cemetery reveals 28 men of the 7th Bn. Royal Irish Regiment (CWGC Link). That list also includes those listed as "7th (South Irish Horse) Bn.", so the search is primarily catching the "7th". Note that the list does not include any known to be South Irish Horse, so we now know the list is incomplete. I recall an earlier discussion that the "Secondary Regiment" affiliation may have come from the CWGC contacting the family? In the list below (both 1917 and 1918 men) I have deleted the secondary regiment column as there were none listed (known to be SIH in red). Is there are reason that three (3) are recorded only as "7th Bn." (shown in blue) or is that a simple recording error in the database?

 

surname initials death rank Royal Irish Regiment

#

grave
BATEMAN S 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25026' II. H. 34.
BURKE M 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25063' II. H. 31.
COLEMAN P 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25152' II. H. 32.
COLLEARY J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25154' II. H. 35.
CONDON J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25159' II. H. 26.
CONNELLAN A J 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25161' II. H. 29.
DUGGAN M 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25239' II. H. 33.
FARRELL E 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25266' II. G. 42.
GIBSON R 12-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25309' II. G. 45.
JACKSON J D 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25402' II. G. 43.
KELLY R G 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25429' II. G. 38.
MURRAY G T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25637' II. G. 41.
McCARTHY F 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25523' II. H. 37.
McCARTHY T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25524' II. H. 33.
O'DEA D J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25665' II. H. 28.
O'SHEA J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25687' II. H. 30.
SHEA P 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25772' II. H. 27.
SMITH J T 12-12-17 Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25785' II. G. 39.
SWIFTE A 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25823' II. G. 44.
THOMSON A B 12-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25838' II. G. 40.
BADDELEY J T 21-03-18 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '3/8479' II. A. 25.
BYRNE M 21-03-18 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25070' I. C. 7.
DUNBAR O J 21-03-18 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25242' II. A. 12.
McMASTER J 21-03-18 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '4155' I. B. 32.
O'BRIEN W 21-03-18 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25657' II. A. 16.
STONE F 21-03-18 Serjeant 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25809' II. D. 20.
STONE J 21-03-18 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '7861' II. D. 14.
WINTLE C J 21-03-18 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '16200' I. C. 10.

 

If we now go back to see all the men of the Royal Irish Regiment that were killed in December 1917, with an affiliation to the "7th Bn." or the "7th (South Irish Horse) Bn." we now have a new candidate for the UNKNOWN as only Private C. Kiely is on the Thiepval Memorial for 19 December 1917. Was he previously South Irish Horse? YES HE WAS! His Medal Card (Ancestry Link) tells us that he was #1696 with the South Irish Horse and changed to #25469 with the Royal Irish Regiment. So clearly he should have been listed as "7th (South Irish Horse) Bn." on the CWGC database. I think Private Christopher Kiely #25469 (purple line below) just bumped Private Llewellyn off the list!

 

surname initials death rank Royal Irish Regiment # cemeterymemorial grave
KENDALL C A 13-12-17 Private "C" Coy. 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25439' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 21.
ROE S G 01-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25742' ST. LEGER BRITISH CEMETERY G. 10.
BATEMAN S 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25026' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 34.
BURKE M 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25063' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 31.
COFFEY T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25096' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 19.
COLLEARY J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25154' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 35.
CONDON J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25159' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 26.
DUGGAN M 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25239' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 33.
GIBSON R 12-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25309' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 45.
JACKSON J D 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25402' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 43.
KELLY R G 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25429' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 38.
MURRAY G T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25637' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 41.
McCARTHY F 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25523' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 37.
McCARTHY T 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25524' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 33.
O'DEA D J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25665' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 28.
O'SHEA J 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25687' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 30.
SHEA P 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25772' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 27.
SMITH J T 12-12-17 Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25785' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 39.
SWIFTE A 12-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25823' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 44.
THOMSON A B 12-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25838' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 40.
KINNEAR J 13-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25460' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 28.
McCABE W 14-12-17 Private 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. '25519' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY III. G. 4.
McNAMEE J 02-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25566' BUCQUOY ROAD CEMETERY, FICHEUX II. K. 12.
RYAN D 08-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25754' ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY XXXI. B. 1.
CLYNCH J 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25140' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 20.
COLEMAN P 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25152' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 32.
CONNELLAN A J 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25161' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 29.
FARRELL E 12-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25266' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 42.
CASEY J 13-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25116' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 32.
DE RUYTER P 13-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25211' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 33.
MOLLISON C 13-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25613' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 22.
CAMERON D 17-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25101' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY III. G. 15.
QUIRKE M F 18-12-17 Lance Corporal 7th Bn. '23119' ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN P. V. F. 5A.
KIELY C 19-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25469' THIEPVAL MEMORIAL Pier and Face 3 A.
COSGROVE J J 20-12-17 Private 7th Bn. '25175' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY III. G. 20.

 

 

Edited by laughton
added CWGC link to Kiely

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spof
21 minutes ago, laughton said:

That gives us at least two additional SIH in the cemetery from March 1918. A search of the cemetery reveals 28 men of the 7th Bn. Royal Irish Regiment (CWGC Link). That list also includes those listed as "7th (South Irish Horse) Bn.", so the search is primarily catching the "7th". Note that the list does not include any known to be South Irish Horse, so we now know the list is incomplete. I recall an earlier discussion that the "Secondary Regiment" affiliation may have come from the CWGC contacting the family? In the list below (both 1917 and 1918 men) I have deleted the secondary regiment column as there were none listed (known to be SIH in red). Is there are reason that three (3) are recorded only as "7th Bn." (shown in blue) or is that a simple recording error in the database?

 

Richard

 

Have a look at southirishhorse.com. This snippet from their history will explain a lot

 

 In September 1917 the officers and men of both regiments were retrained as infantry and formed 7th (South Irish Horse) Battalion Royal Irish Regiment. The battalion was posted to 49th Infantry Brigade in 16th (Irish) Division.

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laughton

Thanks for that! I had not noticed the reference to Terance Denman's book, as that might also have some information about Crofton and Moore, which got me started on all of this topic! In addition, both my grandfather's, although originally CEF, served as Officers in Irish regiments. I see no mention of  those two using the Google Search function within the book (this link). Ouch, $90 Canadian up for a used copy here on this side of the pond! University copies can only be borrowed if sent to another university.

 

I checked the war diary and it does refer to the shelling at Ste. Emilie (page 34 of 84), after the relief and they were in the billets. This is probably another case of where the war diaries often referred to the action on the 12th also including the overnight period of the 12th-13th as part of the 12th. That same page shows that the unit marched to Tincourt on the 19th. They had been at Buire (62c.J.27) on the 17th, so they were moving back northeast towards Villers-Faucon, which they did so by train. They were in Brigade Reserve on the 11th (war diary page 46 of 84) at Ste. Emilie, as they were again on the 16th.

 

There was no action recorded during that period so it is not clear how Kiely died on the 19th. If he had been wounded and died at that time it is more likely his burial place would have been known. He is not listed on the ICRC site (this link) as being a prisoner. Checking on others close to that date leaves me blank for Lance Corporal Michael Francis Quirke #23119, died on 18th, as the only LC I can find is Michael Quirke #1440 SIH to 25719 RIR (Ancestry Link)? He is buried at Rouen, so as a hospital casualty we have no idea when he was wounded.  Pte. John J. Cosgrove #25175, died on the 20th, had also been South Irish Horse #2133 (Ancestry Link), as was Cameron also buried at Tincourt (both on this GRRF 2054963). The CWGC reports Tincourt as a centre for Casualty Clearing Stations, so logically they were two of the wounded from the 12th-13th shelling.

 

How did Kiely disappear off the face of the earth?

 

 

Edited by laughton
struck out comments about Michael Francis Quirke

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spof

Ancestry's Ireland, Casualties of World War 1 1914-1922 shows him as being killed on the 4th.

 

Screenshot from 2018-07-06 13-06-02.png

 

I can't access the WD but was there a raid or similar on that date? He may have gone missing on the 4th and his body recovered on the 19th hence the CWGC date.

 

Of course, that dte may be wrong too.

 

 

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laughton

Interesting!

 

December 1918 1917 War Diary (transcription by day page 33 of 84):

  1. Battln holding Centre Subsector and Situation normal - 2 ORs seriously wounded and died
  2. Relieved by 21st Middlesex Rgt and marched back to Belfast Camp ERVILLERS (copy of movement order attached).
  3. Battln left ERVILLERS at 10:30 am, marched to BARASTRE and occupied billets (copy of movement order attached).
  4. Standing to to move at very short notice from BARASTRE. Lewis Gun Class - firing.
  5. Marched to TINCOURT & billeted there for the night (copy of order attd).
  6. Battln marched to St. EMILIE  (copy of movement order attached).

There is no mention of casualties until the 10th when it is reported that two of the men were wounded. On the 11th thy sent a patrol to PRIEL FARM and were fired on from the vicinity of EAGLE QUARRY. Priel Farm had been earlier reported as the source of the German artillery. Regiment relieved on the 12th and went to billets at Ste. Emille. The billets were shelled, killing 28 men and wounding 40!

 

Anther possibility is a mix up in the date of the 4 and 19 and it is actually the 14th, as two large 17-200 men working parties went out on the 14th and 15th under Hants Pioneers. One (1) man reported wounded on the 16th from shelling.

 

If it was any of those events that lead to his death then he was certainly in the vicinity of Ste. Emilie British Cemetery where the remains were recovered. My guess is he was one of those lost during the shelling on the 12th and the body was not recovered and buried until the 19th.

Edited by laughton
war diary reference is 1917 not 1918

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laughton

Trying to narrow this down, as obviously the CWGC record that has the date of death of 19 December 1917 is questionable. I do not know where they got that information. When I have asked before, the CWGC has told me they rely on the official military records (which are?).

 

I checked his Medal Card and it also has 4 December 1917 (this link). It shows his original South Irish Horse number as 1696.

 

I checked UK Soldiers died in the Great War and it gives his death as 4 February 1917 (this link).

 

I then checked De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour, 1914-1919 and there is no record.

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spof
18 hours ago, laughton said:

When I have asked before, the CWGC has told me they rely on the official military records (which are?).

 

I believe lists of casualties were sent to IWGC at the time with a place of burial if they had one. I'm guessing they came from the local Records office (probably Cork for the SIH) and I'm not aware of any surviving.

 

Going through some old Irish newspapers for the time, page 3 of the Irish Examiner for 22 May 1918, reports William Llewllyn died of wounds. If so, he mustn't have made it to the CCS and was buried at the Aid Post. Or else, he was incorrectly reported as DoW was supposed to only apply to those who had entered the medical evacuation chain.

 

As an aside, a Pte Richard Wolfe of the SIH attd to the Royal Irish Regiment was awarded a DCM for his actions on the 10th Dec 1917.

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Justinth

Hi Laughton

 

The information and records received by the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries and the Imperial War Graves Commission are set out in the relevant parts of my website, chiefly the Glossary (plus some of the accompanying blog articles):

 

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/graves-registration-commission-directorate-of-graves-registration-enquiries-i-w-g-c-record-glossary/

 

Best

 

 

Justin

 

This post will help when it comes to the casualty information they received:

 

 

But you also need to look at the entries explaining SSP reports (in all their forms including the related JK) , plus the D.G.R. & E/ I.W.G.C. Card Index (plus the related Weekly Reports) etc. I would also look at the entry on standard letters to see how the Enquiries Branch of D.G.R. & E. dealt with the information received.

 

It was a very interesting system to study and write about.

 

Best wishes

 

 

Justin

 

P.S. The following were also of great importance in reporting a burial/grave to G.R.C./D.G.R. & E:

https://warrecordsrevealed.com/chaplains-and-divisional-corps-burial-returns/

Edited by Justinth

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laughton

27 men of the Royal Irish Regiment are buried for 12-13 December 1917 (CWGC Link).

 

I had not niticed previously that one (1) OR was wounded with Captain Vernon (page 34 of 84). That is in addition to the 40 wounded in the bombing. Five (5) died from the 14th to 20th of the month, including Kiely (CWGC Link). He is the only one on the Thiepval Memorial. The others were buried in cemeteries associated with medical facilities - all makes sense.

 

I suspect we will find that he also died on the 13th of the month but as he was not recovered and buried with the initial 27 his name was not included as one of the 28 men. That gives us 27+1=28 men for the 12th-13th, as recorded in the war diary.

 

It can not be any of the other men, they all have known burial locations.

 

Commnets?

Edited by laughton

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laughton

We have to have a confirmed date of death to go forward with this case of Christopher Kiely.

Here is what we have in the war diary for each of those dates:

  • February 4, 1917
    • battalion in brigade reserve at Railway Cutting at STE. EMILIE working on defence line and billets
    • relieved  by 2nd RDF and moved to billets at VILLERS FAUCON from 3rd to 9th
    • no reports of casualties in war diary, no CWGC entries 3rd to 5th
  • December 4, 1917: 
    • battalion was at ERVILLERS on the 3rd and marched to BARASTRE
    • "Standing To" and ready to move on short notice from BARASTRE to TINCOUT
    • did not move up to STE. EMILIE until the 6th
    • no reports of casualties in war diary, no CWGC entries 3rd to 5th
  • December 19, 1917:
    • relieved and marched to BUIRE on the 17th, where they rested on the 18th
    • on the 19th they marched to TINCOURT and entrained for VILLERS FAUCON for baths on the 20th and 21st
    • no reports of casualties in war diary, CWGC reports 3 casualties - one each on 18th (DOW at Rouen), 19th (C. Kiely), 20th (at Tincourt)

We have to take the CWGC date as the real date unless we can prove otherwise. As noted previously, he may have been wounded during the earlier action on the 11th and not found to be missing and dead until the 19th. If he had been wounded and was at an aid station there would be information.

 

NEXT STEP - check the war diaries of the RAMC for 11th, 112th and 113th Field Ambulance.

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laughton

Back to follow up on the matter of the Field Ambulance War Diaries for December 1917: (49th Brigade, 16th Irish Division)

  • 111th Field Ambulance was managing the Civil Hospital at Peronne 62c.I.27.b to the west of Tincourt. The war diary (page 269 of 439) says they were doing routine clean-up and hospital duties. No mention of an influx of wounded men from a bombing of the billets.
     
  • 112th Field ambulance says they were in Haamel but they should have said 62c.J.18.d.9.3 (not"K"). Nothing medical reported in the war diary (page 241 of 339).
     
  • 113th Field Ambulance was at Villers-Faucon and received those wounded in the bombing of the billets. The war diary (page 166 of 310) reported 40 seriously wounded cases at about 11 pm on the 13th, but there are no additional details.
     
  • Nothing in the HQ Assistant Director Medical Services war diary (page 416 of 621).

So we have accounted for the 40 wounded but there is no mention of those that died, or if one of the 40 men died of his wounds. Given the late hour of the reports, that death would have probably been recorded on 14 December 1917.

 

An additional item I noticed while checking on the documents was that all the service numbers on the COG-BR and GRRF were changed by the time it got to the headstone schedule (HD-SCHD 2746470). For example, BATEMAN who was listed as #1608 changed to #25026. I checked his Medal Roll Index Card and that answered the question. They were still showing the South Irish Horse numbers on the initial documents, so they must have been wearing those at the time on their discs. That would explain how they identified the unknown as South Irish Horse.

 

These exhumations, examinations (the report) were completed in May 1930 so there was probably not much left. There are no service records for Private Kiely #1696 SIH), #25469 (RIR) so we can not check if the physical description matches.

 

I don't think there is much doubt that this is not the grave of Private Christopher Kiely, the 28th man that was killed. Remember the other 27 are all listed as buried in three local cemeteries (CWGC Link) but proving he died on the 12th or 13th would seal the case. We need the third bullet:

  1. The war diary reports 28 men were killed in the bombing of the billets (page 33 of 84)
  2. The CWGC shows 27 of these 28 men are buried in the local cemeteries:
    • 20 in the Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery
    • 4 in the Villers-Faucon Communal Cemetery Extension
    • 3 in the Tincourt New British Cemetery
  3. The 28th man is the UNKNOWN South Irish Horse buried with the other 20 in the Templeux-le-Guerard British Cemetery.

The key to convincing the CWGC of this case is that there is an incorrect date on someone's death record. If that was not true, then how do they explain that there were 28 men killed that day but their records only show 27 men buried? The answer is that the 28th man has to be on the Thiepval Memorial for the missing. There is only 1 man from this unit on the memorial for the whole month of December 1917, and that is Private Kiely (CWGC Link)! That man was buried in the Ste. Emilie British Cemetery in the  same plot and row as the other 20 men and in a consecutively numbered grave. There is no question that the 28th man was buried with the other 27. The 20 concentrated from Ste. Emilie are in these lists:

Well that has caused another problem! That adds up to 22 men. Add those to the other two cemeteries and we now have 29 men.

 

One of the men listed on the last COG-BR page is not on the CWGC list of 20. It turns out that Pte. J. McDonald #2231 (South Irish Horse) #25541 (Royal Irish Regiment), is listed by the CWGC as "Royal Irish Rifles", not "Regiment". His Medal Card confirms that he was with the Royal Irish Regiment. There was a 7th (Service) Battalion in the Royal Irish Rifles which left the 16th Division on 23 August 1917 (LLT).

 

When we add these all together, here are the 29 men. The extra two men are on the bottom of the list. Now I have to sort out which of these men were NOT in the group that was killed in the bombing of the billets .... to be continued. I suspect the answer lies in the men that are buried at Tincourt.

 

surname initials death rank # cemetery or memorial grave
BATEMAN S 12-12-17 Private '25026' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 34.
BURKE M 12-12-17 Private '25063' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 31.
COLEMAN P 12-12-17 Private '25152' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 32.
COLLEARY J 12-12-17 Private '25154' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 35.
CONDON J 12-12-17 Private '25159' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 26.
CONNELLAN A J 12-12-17 Private '25161' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 29.
DUGGAN M 12-12-17 Private '25239' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 33.
FARRELL E 12-12-17 Private '25266' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 42.
GIBSON R 12-12-17 Lance Corporal '25309' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 45.
JACKSON J D 12-12-17 Private '25402' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 43.
KELLY R G 12-12-17 Private '25429' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 38.
McCARTHY F 12-12-17 Private '25523' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 37.
McCARTHY T 12-12-17 Private '25524' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 33.
MURRAY G T 12-12-17 Private '25637' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 41.
O'DEA D J 12-12-17 Private '25665' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 28.
O'SHEA J 12-12-17 Private '25687' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 30.
SHEA P 12-12-17 Private '25772' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 27.
SMITH J T 12-12-17 Corporal '25785' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 39.
SWIFTE A 12-12-17 Private '25823' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 44.
THOMSON A B 12-12-17 Lance Corporal '25838' TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. G. 40.
CASEY J 13-12-17 Private '25116' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 32.
DE RUYTER P 13-12-17 Private '25211' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 33.
KINNEAR J 13-12-17 Private '25460' TINCOURT NEW BRITISH CEMETERY IV. B. 28.
CLYNCH J 12-12-17 Private '25140' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 20.
COFFEY T 12-12-17 Private '25096' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 19.
KENDALL C A 13-12-17 Private '25439' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 21.
MOLLISON C 13-12-17 Private '25613' VILLERS-FAUCON COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION I. C. 22.
MCDONALD J 12-12-17 Private 25541 TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY II. H. 38.
KIELY C 19-12-17 Private 25469 THIEPVAL MEMORIAL  

 

 

 

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laughton

All three (3) men in Tincourt appear to be ones that DOW at the CCS of the time, as they are in time consecutive plots, without any exhumation records. That could mean they are part of the 40 that were wounded and not one of the 28 that was killed outright on the night of the 12th or early on the 13th. That could drop us back to 26 men on the primary list. The problem is that we don't know that they did not die as soon as they arrived at the CCS or immediately thereafter, and thus were included on the list.

 

There is no mention of the Villers-Faucon Communal Cemetery Extension being associated with any CCS. The early placement of the graves of the 4 men and the lack of any exhumation records, would indicate they were direct burials when they were killed in the bombing.

 

We may have the list of 28 and then the extra man might be Private Kiely, who did not die in the shelling of the billets. The CWGC would agree with that, as he is reported killed 6 days later on 19 December 1917. They may have figured that out in 1917 so they knew the date was not the 13th.

 

Perhaps I am making this case more complicated than it needs to be - possible. Private Kiely is the only one on the Thiepval Memorial and there is only one man of the 7th (South Irish Horse) Battalion missing. If you have one grave with no name and one name with no grave, is that not the answer?

 

Adding McDonald (the CWGC error) to the list above and removing Kiely (the Unknown) leaves us with the 28 men killed in the shelling of the billets. The UNKNOWN is the last one on the list of graves, perhaps because he died after the tragic night of the 12 December 1917?

 

The only answer I can see is that Private Kieley is the one (1) man wounded on 16 December 1917 (war diary page 34 of 84) and he succumbed to his wounds before he went to a distant CCS. On the 19th the battalion marched to Tincourt.

 

Once again, it would be great to confirm his exact date of death.

Edited by laughton

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vaugh

Hi,

Only found this post by accident, can't work out how to send you a message, used to be a simple click of an obvious link, now not available... If you drop me a message (assuming this can still be achieved!!) with an email address i'll let you know how the 7th (SIH) Btn R Ir Regt was numbered.

All the best

Doug

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vaugh

Hi again,

You most likely know this already but just in case here is a list of the eight unknown SIH men, had this list for some time and have done nothing with it yet...

Classification-Classification title Casualty Type Concentrated From Grave/Memorial Ref Regiment Description Rank Description Hss PI Line 1
France - UNICORN CEMETERY, VENDHUILE Unknown 62b.A.8. IV. E. 30 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - ASSEVILLERS NEW BRITISH CEMETERY Unknown 62c.J.27. Buire Courcelle (via Tincourt MC) X. E. 2 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - BAILLEUL ROAD EAST CEMETERY, ST. LAURENT-BLANGY Unknown 62c.F.17. IV. D. 8 South Irish Horse Officer KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - UNICORN CEMETERY, VENDHUILE Unknown 62c.F.22. I. E. 19 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - LONDON CEMETERY AND EXTENSION, LONGUEVAL Unknown 62c.F.22.a. X. J. 37 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - CABARET-ROUGE BRITISH CEMETERY, SOUCHEZ Unknown 62c.F.17. XI. F. 2 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - UNICORN CEMETERY, VENDHUILE Unknown 62c.F.21. IV. G. 4 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
France - UNICORN CEMETERY, VENDHUILE Unknown 62c.F.22. I. E. 20 South Irish Horse Soldier KNOWN UNTO GOD
             

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laughton
11 hours ago, vaugh said:

can't work out how to send you a message

Mouse over the profile image and you will see a MESSAGE icon.

 

It has been a while since I worked on this case, so it takes a bit of work to get back into the front lines! I think it is best that you post any information that you have RIGHT HERE, for all the see and share. That makes it a lot easier when you go back to revisit a case a few months later.

 

I am not sure I understand the second post:

11 hours ago, vaugh said:

here is a list of the eight unknown SIH men

Which eight unknown SIH men? The only COG-BR documents with a direct reference to "South Irish Horse"? No, I guess not, as this man is not listed. I am probably missing something very obvious. :unsure:

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laughton

This was posted as a comment on my blog by @KGB listing of unknown cases so I presume that this was meant to go here, as it is the only topic with a reference to "Condon":

 

On 10/11/2018 at 11:48, KGB said:

C Coy 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regt, the unit Condon was in. 24 May 1915, there seems to be only 5 cemeteries (4 Belgian, 1 French) which have unknown graves. 

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KGB

I am trying to find out what happened to the bodies of C Coy 2nd Royal Irish Regt killed 24 May 1915. 

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the_guvnor

Hi

 

I'm slightly puzzled by this thread and, in particular, the statement 'There is only ONE MAN of the South Irish Horse that is on the Pozieres Memorial serving in Royal Irish Regiment'. Maybe I've misunderstood the statement but - with respect - I don't think it can be true.

 

7th Battalion RIR was formed from the SIH as has already been noted above and they suffered terrible losses on 21 March 1918 in the German spring offensive. They were located near Ronsoy at that time. I believe two companies were isolated as the German attack swept past and were virtually annihilated. My great uncle, Arthur Victor Gorman, was one of those killed on that day whose body was never recovered. He is commemorated on the wall of the Pozieres cemetery. I haven't checked but I think there must have been many others.

 

Mark Perry's book 'The South Irish Horse in the Great War' names over 40 SIH men 'Missing, presumed dead, Ronsoy' or 'No known grave, Ronsoy' from late March 1918. I had assumed that most of these men would also be commemorated at Pozieres, but I haven't checked.

 

Anyway, excuse this somewhat random intervention. I don't know if it affects your conclusions but I thought I should point these facts out in case it helps you in your investigations.

 

N.B.:, Arthur Victor Gorman's service numbers were 1852 (when he was in the South Irish Horse) and 25325 (when he was in 7th Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment)

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laughton

I was looking at this and then realized that the it is possible that @the_guvnor did not read all of the posts or all of the words in an individual post. Many of these topics are quite "fluid" and thus what might be stated in the first post can change significantly in the next post or ten posts later. This topic clearly changed direction on several occasions.

 

For example, the red part of the quote is all that appears above, the remainder of the statement was omitted:

 

Quote

The Special Exhumation shows that he was "South Irish Horse" and then it was changed to 7th Royal Irish Regiment. There is only ONE MAN of the South Irish Horse that is on the Pozieres Memorial serving in Royal Irish Regiment, specifically in the "A" Coy. 7th (South Irish Horse) Bn. His name is Private William Llewellyn #73880.

 

In hindsight I could say I should have inserted the "specifically" component earlier in the statement. as we are looking at the 7th Battalion.

 

Later it was also stated:

 

Quote

The CWGC database does show that there were 92 deaths in the 7th Bn. North Irish Horse in the March-April period. Only the one is listed as South Irish Horse as the secondary Regiment, but is that because that was fact or that the CWGC database is not complete?

 

By this time in the process, I would suggest that we all know that the CWGC database is far from complete. It is a good tool to get started but it is not the final answer.

 

There is never an issue with a "random intervention", as the more that participate the better our research becomes. This topic never came to a conclusion, and it won't unless there is a confirmed date of death.

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