Will O'Brien Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Terry I’m aware that the NOK of servicemen who were buried in UK had the choice of a CWGC marker or a private headstone (Many choosing the latter). I have a query however on the CWGC’s position if the NOK declined having a CWGC headstone because they did not want the grave marked at all (i.e. no CWGC or private headstone)..............I assume the CWGC would abide by that request even though it goes against their charter to mark & maintain graves of servicemen afforded war grave status. The question is asked in the following context............For a while I have been puzzling over a chap buried in the cemetery 5 minutes from where I live. Simply speaking I can't find him.............He has war grave status as he is listed on the CWGC site..............The CWGC even list the plot reference of his grave..........However, where I estimate his grave should be (not an exact science I'll admit due to the irregularity of the cemetery layout) there are only unmarked plots. I appreciate that headstones or markers fall into disrepair (the cemetery has many of this nature), but usually you can see evidence that a headstone was once there. I have also checked other plots with headstones for burials around about the same time & I can't find him there either...................I have always thought that he must have had a private headstone originally but it had been removed in its entirety..........This was until this evening when a fellow forum Pal sprung a revelation on me as to the nature of the soldiers death & led me thinking about another possibility ...........The man in question committed suicide.............I am aware that social stigma & conservative religious beliefs often meant that those who died at their own hands had unmarked graves...............so I am now pondering whether it is possible the lack of a marker or headstone was deliberate on the part of the NOK in light of how he died & whether the CWGC would co-operate with such a scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Will Your assumptions may be right about the stigma attached to suicide. The burial may be in a common grave with several others or in an unmarked, privately owned grave. If there has never been a headstone, this was probably at the nok's choice - either through cost reasons or for some perceived 'shame' of the event. In those days it would also have probably been in an unconsecrated piece of ground. CWGC believe that ALL qualifying casualties must be commemorated no matter how they died and nobody (not even nok) have the right to prevent that - so they would not have openly agreed with any such request. However, they cannot force nok to accept a headstone on ground which the nok own or lease. In such circumstances, the name is often inscribed on a screen wall or some other such device but on occasions no name appears anywhere pending a resolution of the situation (nok changing their minds). Often a stone has been erected later when later nok have agreed. Where are we talking about? However, a check of the cemetery register may show whether any sort or marker was originally erected. It may not necessarily have been a headstone and could have been quite small and now disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 9 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2005 In such circumstances, the name is often inscribed on a screen wall or some other such device but on occasions no name appears anywhere pending a resolution of the situation (nok changing their minds). Often a stone has been erected later when later nok have agreed. Where are we talking about? However, a check of the cemetery register may show whether any sort or marker was originally erected. It may not necessarily have been a headstone and could have been quite small and now disappeared. The cemetery in question is Bletchley cemetery (there is no screen wall or similiar)........I think a search for where the cemetery register is kept is in order so I can as you suggest see whether it records any marker being in place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 Will - Is this man the one who served in the CEF and is the cemetery at Fenny Stratford? On a visit there once I saw a headstone for the father of a soldier in the CEF (I am pretty sure of it) and it either said on the headstone or elsewhere that the son commited suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 9 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2005 Will - Is this man the one who served in the CEF and is the cemetery at Fenny Stratford? On a visit there once I saw a headstone for the father of a soldier in the CEF (I am pretty sure of it) and it either said on the headstone or elsewhere that the son commited suicide. Lee.............Yep CEF chap, the Bletchley cemetery at Fenny...............was it just his fathers grave or was he buried there as well (you can't remember in what part of the cemetery you saw this can you?)..............as I said in my previous post, estimating the grave location provided on the CWGC site, I came up with a grouping of unmarked graves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 Will It is still possible that you have not located the right grave. To be sure, email CWGC's UK office at Leamington Spa to say that you are trying to locate Whiting's grave and could they describe its location and memorial. They obviously keep detailed records of locations and descriptions of private markers. They have always been willing to give me the description and sometimes a plan when I have had trouble finding a private war grave (ukaoffice@cwgc.org). If there was/is no marker they should have such a record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 10 January , 2005 Share Posted 10 January , 2005 Lee.............Yep CEF chap, the Bletchley cemetery at Fenny...............was it just his fathers grave or was he buried there as well (you can't remember in what part of the cemetery you saw this can you) Will - Off the top of my head....so it might be a little way off! Go through gates (where I left my car in that little car park). Walk down the path on the right past what looks like a cremated burial area on your left. As you enter the cemetery proper there is an old building on your right. The grave was on my left, and if I recall correctly, beside a hedge. I'm off to work (lates this week) but if you can't find it I'll go back there over the weekend and locate it for you and get some pics (with my new digi-cam ). Hope this is of some help mate. What's his name? PM me and I'll see if I kept a record somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 10 January , 2005 Share Posted 10 January , 2005 There is a WW2 grave in a semi derelict graveyard at Yazor, Herefordshire. I could not find it to photograph it and I understand from the local 'laird' that the CWGC is to erect a new stone in mid 2005. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 10 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2005 Will It is still possible that you have not located the right grave. To be sure, email CWGC's UK office at Leamington Spa to say that you are trying to locate Whiting's grave and could they describe its location and memorial. They obviously keep detailed records of locations and descriptions of private markers. They have always been willing to give me the description and sometimes a plan when I have had trouble finding a private war grave (ukaoffice@cwgc.org). If there was/is no marker they should have such a record. Terry...............Thanks for pointing me in the right direction with regards to contacting the CWGC on this one..........Here's hoping they will be able to shed some light on this .................I'm going to kick myself if they get back to me confirming there's a marker or headstone in place as I've searched on several occasions. A positive response will also prove my way of trying to locate the grave by cross referencing the grave references for other known CWGC burials in the cemetery was simply pants ......................On the up side if the CWGC can confirm the exact location I'll be able to go & pay my respects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 10 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2005 Will - Off the top of my head....so it might be a little way off! Go through gates (where I left my car in that little car park). Walk down the path on the right past what looks like a cremated burial area on your left. As you enter the cemetery proper there is an old building on your right. The grave was on my left, and if I recall correctly, beside a hedge. I'm off to work (lates this week) but if you can't find it I'll go back there over the weekend and locate it for you and get some pics (with my new digi-cam ). Lee...............I can picture exactly where you mean. I'm going to nip in on my way to work tomorrow morning (as I said I literally live 5 minutes away down in Water Eaton) so no need to drag you all the way over from Wolverton...................New digi cam..........& there's me thinking you were a strictly 35mm guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 11 January , 2005 Share Posted 11 January , 2005 New digi cam..........& there's me thinking you were a strictly 35mm guy I was, I WAS! But these digi-cams are great!! However, the Nikon F3 is never far away from my grasp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 11 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2005 Just a quick update for anyone interested...................This morning, on my way to work I stopped off at Bletchley cemetery. Although the light wasn't great (7.30ish) it was good enough for a quick scout around. Following Lee's directions I found what he had thought to be my missing soldiers' fathers grave. The headstone is pretty badly damaged (it is/was a cross on a plinth) & the top cross section is broken off completely but the base still remains...............Crouched there on the dewy grass I almost wet myself when I read the inscription. I'm fairly sure that Lee was right in all but one thing.............I believe it is not the fathers grave but the soldiers himself ...............Given the damage I can't be 100% sure but hopefully my email to the CWGC (that Terry Denham suggested I send) will result in them providing a description of the location & type of memorial............Despite getting cold & wet before starting work, I have to say it was all worth it, being able to pay my respects to this soldier.............I'll probably never find out why he chose to take his own life, but I do know from what I have found out about him that he did his duty & saw things that I can barely imagine...............& I for one will remember him. This episode has however proved, as I had a sneaking suspicion my previous efforts to locate the grave were shall we say rather pathetic..............Now knowing where it is I still can't reconcile the grave reference number provided on the CWGC to its actual location...............Also in my defence, the grave is in the 'wrong' part of the cemetery. What I mean is there is like most cemeteries some uniformity in respect to the date groupings..............People who died at the same sort of time are usually grouped in the same area. The grave for this soldier is amongst burials which occurred 20 or so years before his own..............Bottom line is I don't mind looking a bit of a Muppet on this one as at the end of the day I'm pretty sure I've found him...........I'd like to thank Lee Bradbury, Terry Denham & Chris Wight for the various aspects of help they have provided me on this little voyage of discovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 11 January , 2005 Share Posted 11 January , 2005 Will Well done. The earlier grave location suggests that he has been buried in an existing grave - probably with another family member. Finding an grave chronologically misplaced is not unusual for a number of reasons. I quickly learned when searching for war graves in UK cemeteries that there is one golden rule - "He is here but it's me that can't find him. Keep looking". I always reminded myself of this when I reached the point of giving up and saying 'He's not here. I'm off home'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 12 January , 2005 Share Posted 12 January , 2005 Will, I just came across this thread and I'm glad to see you found your man. Even better to know he no longer forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 12 January , 2005 Share Posted 12 January , 2005 Will - As I said in my PM, I am really glad you found your man. If he hadn't been a CEF man I probably wouldn't have taken as much notice as I did. I could have sworn the grave was his father's, but my visit was over a year ago and my memory isn't what it was . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 12 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2005 I received a very nice email from a Kerry Thompson who works for the CWGC, providing a description & location of the grave.............An exact match in all respects to the one I found, so now I'm absolutely certain..............Many thanks to everyone again.................... I quickly learned when searching for war graves in UK cemeteries that there is one golden rule - "He is here but it's me that can't find him. Keep looking". I always reminded myself of this when I reached the point of giving up and saying 'He's not here. I'm off home'. Sage advice as usual Terry.........It's a rule I going to plagiarise if that's O.K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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