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mikereme

9th Scottish Division - Italian Front 1917/18

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MaxD

Not at all.  Just wondering if the date reported missing is the date of the list rather than the date he actually went missing.  There is no indication in the war diary of any such occurrence around that date.  However, they took some hammer in mid April with a number of missing reported.  You've probably seen this already.

 

Max

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Ron Clifton
4 hours ago, mikereme said:

Surname - Williams,

First Name - Thomas, Samuel.

Service  No 36812

Reported Missing 25/0518 

Died Of Wounds 26/05/18

On the day he went missing, 9th Division (and 9 Bn MGC) were part of XXII Corps, Second Army, so would have been in Belgium. This is consistent with all the above information. It looks as if the most likely answer was that he was with a different MGC company in Italy, then returned and was posted to a company of 9 Bn MGC on his return. He may have been wounded in Italy and that the photo was taken while he was on home convalescent leave, but he may have been allocated to 9 Bn MGC by then. The Scots bonnet still worries me, though.

 

Ron

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mikereme
7 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

On the day he went missing, 9th Division (and 9 Bn MGC) were part of XXII Corps, Second Army, so would have been in Belgium. This is consistent with all the above information. It looks as if the most likely answer was that he was with a different MGC company in Italy, then returned and was posted to a company of 9 Bn MGC on his return. He may have been wounded in Italy and that the photo was taken while he was on home convalescent leave, but he may have been allocated to 9 Bn MGC by then. The Scots bonnet still worries me, though.

 

Ron

Ron..that is my view entirely....With another MGC coy....and posted to the 9th Bn later or he was attached to another coy from the 9th Bn (accepted that he would have another headdress)...cheers buddy!

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mikereme
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Not at all.  Just wondering if the date reported missing is the date of the list rather than the date he actually went missing.  There is no indication in the war diary of any such occurrence around that date.  However, they took some hammer in mid April with a number of missing reported.  You've probably seen this already.

 

Max

Max..in the 9th Bn diary on the 25th April 1918 Officers named as missing...but 7 ORs listed I accepted that this was him.

Edited by mikereme

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MaxD

136 ORS missing on 26th plus 11 wounded and missing - could have been any of these days.- 

 

Max

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mikereme
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, MaxD said:

136 ORS missing on 26th plus 11 wounded and missing - could have been any of these days.- 

 

Max

I think you may be right there Max in the ICRC (List of missing) There were in total 77 men missing during that attack..

 

Edited by mikereme

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Ron Clifton

It looks as if the actual dates of his death and the day he went missing might actually been in April, not May. That would be more consistent with heavy fighting around Ypres.

 

Ron

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mikereme
12 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

It looks as if the actual dates of his death and the day he went missing might actually been in April, not May. That would be more consistent with heavy fighting around Ypres.

 

Ron

Hi Mate, The recorded day of Death 26/05/18....the recorded reported of missing 25/05/18

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MaxD

Date of death is recorded on his POW card but the 25 May 1918 must have been the date of the list not the actual date he went missing which is likely to have been in mid April as I think all agree.  

 

Max

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mikereme
5 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Date of death is recorded on his POW card but the 25 May 1918 must have been the date of the list not the actual date he went missing which is likely to have been in mid April as I think all agree.  

 

Max

Sorry Max..reported missing 25 April 18.

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mikereme

Just a thought...would some soldiers be sent from other  battalions (MGC) to boost up the divisions that were sent to Italy....would this be feasible?

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Steven Broomfield
18 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

 The Scots bonnet still worries me, though.

 

Ron

 

Mike - is there any chance of a close-up scan of the ToS? It's indistinct, but I wonder if he's wearing an MGC badge: I believe some MG types in Scottish formations did, and a better (if possible) look at the badge on the ToS might help.

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MaxD
2 hours ago, mikereme said:

Just a thought...would some soldiers be sent from other  battalions (MGC) to boost up the divisions that were sent to Italy....would this be feasible?

 

There doesn't appear to be any evidence in the ORBATs of the divisions that went to Italy that they had anything other than their normal complement of MGC units (There were no MG battalions before March/April 1918).  The history of 5th Division confirms the Longlongtrail ORBAT ie 13, 15 and 95 Brigade MG Companies in their respective brigades and 205 MG Company at divisional level. Whether the companies were boosted in any way by additional gun sections - don't know, not mentioned in the 5 Div history and otherwise one would have to read the relevant diaries of the 5 divisions who went.

 

Max

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mikereme
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Mike - is there any chance of a close-up scan of the ToS? It's indistinct, but I wonder if he's wearing an MGC badge: I believe some MG types in Scottish formations did, and a better (if possible) look at the badge on the ToS might help.

Steve....its definitely an MGC cap badge...just tried it ........close up "hey I found my calling"

 

image.png.7826e5ac663247f90bd5cd8f84803ef4.png

Edited by mikereme
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mikereme
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, MaxD said:

 

There doesn't appear to be any evidence in the ORBATs of the divisions that went to Italy that they had anything other than their normal complement of MGC units (There were no MG battalions before March/April 1918).  The history of 5th Division confirms the Longlongtrail ORBAT ie 13, 15 and 95 Brigade MG Companies in their respective brigades and 205 MG Company at divisional level. Whether the companies were boosted in any way by additional gun sections - don't know, not mentioned in the 5 Div history and otherwise one would have to read the relevant diaries of the 5 divisions who went.

 

Max

Max...it was a long short...am just going back to my battlegroup (BG) days when we had composite Inf Coys attached to Armoured Units in Canada...17/2st Lancers  BG...which x 2 infantry Coys 1 GG & 1 Coy from 2 Para (I know paras in armoured vehs)....

Edited by mikereme

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Steven Broomfield

MGC cap badge. I'm certain of it.

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Ron Clifton
23 hours ago, mikereme said:

Just a thought...would some soldiers be sent from other  battalions (MGC) to boost up the divisions that were sent to Italy....would this be feasible?

Not from battalions MGC since, as Max has pointed out, MGC battalions were not formed until March 1918, after 5th and 41st Divisions returned from Italy.

 

It is possible, but unlikely, that the divisions sent to Italy were topped up from other members of MGC companies in France, but it is more likely that topping up would have been done from the MGC Base Depot. It is also possible that Lewis machine-gunners in infantry battalions were drafted to fill up the division's MG companies.

 

Have you looked at Thomas's medal index card? This should list all the regiments and corps with which he served abroad. It won't give the battalion, or the dates of any transfers.

 

Ron

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mikereme
14 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

MGC cap badge. I'm certain of it.

Steve, Cheers buddy...

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mikereme
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

Not from battalions MGC since, as Max has pointed out, MGC battalions were not formed until March 1918, after 5th and 41st Divisions returned from Italy.

 

It is possible, but unlikely, that the divisions sent to Italy were topped up from other members of MGC companies in France, but it is more likely that topping up would have been done from the MGC Base Depot. It is also possible that Lewis machine-gunners in infantry battalions were drafted to fill up the division's MG companies.

 

Have you looked at Thomas's medal index card? This should list all the regiments and corps with which he served abroad. It won't give the battalion, or the dates of any transfers.

 

Ron

I got on the forces war records..medal index cards...just says the two medals he's entitled to Victory Medal/british war medal...no regiments/ corps

 

But managed to get this

 

image.png.461706fd56d46df09c27710f65f42543.png

 

Mike

Edited by mikereme

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MaxD

The MGC medal roll is equally unhelpful with no specific units listed.

 

Max

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Ron Clifton
4 hours ago, mikereme said:

he's entitled to Victory Medal/british war medal...no regiments/ corps

No - his corps is shown as the MGC. This indicates that he only served abroad with them. Any service with the RWF would have happened in England - probably as part of a Reserve battalion. It also means that my suggestion in post 43 that he might have been a Lewis gunner in an infantry battalion is a non-starter.

 

Ron

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mikereme
1 hour ago, Ron Clifton said:

No - his corps is shown as the MGC. This indicates that he only served abroad with them. Any service with the RWF would have happened in England - probably as part of a Reserve battalion. It also means that my suggestion in post 43 that he might have been a Lewis gunner in an infantry battalion is a non-starter.

 

Ron

Ron...I think you are right...I have been informed years ago (researcher) after completing his MGC training (Grantham) he was sent to Camiers  (MGC Depot France) then posted to the 9th Scottish Div....26th MG Coy or A Coy after 1st March 1918....

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mikereme
On 14/06/2018 at 17:36, MaxD said:

Back to Italy - a history of 5th Division here:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.284286

 

Chapter10 onwards.

 

Max

 

 

 

Very interesting Max...

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