Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

mikereme

9th Scottish Division - Italian Front 1917/18

Recommended Posts

mikereme

Hello Everyone, I am researching my great uncle who according to the battalion diary his Battalion 9th Bn The MGC had been posted to Italy I believe November 1917 - March 1918...The Division was one of five sent to that region during that period....there is a diary of a machine gunner that they were located on the River Piave and had a great time in the early months then  they had to return to France [the German spring offensive].

 

Does anyone in this prestigious group know were the 9th Scottish Division were located on the River Piave..... I know this is long shot   but any information will be welcomed....

 

Please see attached picture it is believed  that it was taken in Italy....

 

I thank you in anticipation

 

36812 Pte Williams.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Clifton

Hello Mikereme

 

9th (Scottish) Division never went to Italy. The two divisions which went there in Nov 1917 and came back in March 1918 were 5th and 41st. The divisions which remained in Italy were 7th, 23rd and 48th. The official Orders of Battle do not indicate that 9th Bn MGC ever went to Italy independently.

 

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme

Hello Ron, I can assure you buddy the photo was taken after he returned from Italy...(the reason of my research).......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
tullybrone

Hi,

 

Whilst I haven’t looked for the WD you quote as your source the attached from the sister site Long Long Trail supports Ron’s response to your query.

 

Other sources say 9th Battalion MGC was only created 1st March 1918?

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/9th-scottish-division/

 

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Clifton
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, mikereme said:

Hello Ron, I can assure you buddy the photo was taken after he returned from Italy...(the reason of my research).......

I don't dispute that. I can only say that the source you quote in Post 4 differs from the official records, and I would rather take the word of the official records, which include documents at the National Archives, than of any published work of reminiscence.

 

I repeat that there is no official evidence that the 9th Division, the 9th Bn MGC or any of its constituent MG Companies ever served in Italy. The only units whose soldiers wore Scottish bonnets and which served in Italy were the following:

5 Division
WO 95/4216 2 Battalion King's Own Scottish Borderers 1917 Dec. - 1918 Mar.  
7 Division
WO 95/4224 2 Battalion Gordon Highlanders 1917 Dec. - 1919 Feb.  
 

Ron

Edited by Ron Clifton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252
mikereme
11 hours ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

Whilst I haven’t looked for the WD you quote as your source the attached from the sister site Long Long Trail supports Ron’s response to your query.

 

Other sources say 9th Battalion MGC was only created 1st March 1918?

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/9th-scottish-division/

 

Steve

Hi Steve, Yes I believe the Machine Gun companies were formed into Battalions during that period however the companies that supported the division were in place...just that these were formed into Battalion Formations...Same company 26th Machine Gun Company was supporting 26th Highland Bde....but now within the new 9th Bn MGC...  

11 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

I don't dispute that. I can only say that the source you quote in Post 4 differs from the official records, and I would rather take the word of the official records, which include documents at the National Archives, than of any published work of reminiscence.

 

I repeat that there is no official evidence that the 9th Division, the 9th Bn MGC or any of its constituent MG Companies ever served in Italy. The only units whose soldiers wore Scottish bonnets and which served in Italy were the following:

5 Division
WO 95/4216 2 Battalion King's Own Scottish Borderers 1917 Dec. - 1918 Mar.  
7 Division
WO 95/4224 2 Battalion Gordon Highlanders 1917 Dec. - 1919 Feb.  
 

Ron

Ron, Cheers for this buddy...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme

Gentlemen,  Thank you for your input... i suppose the plot thickens with my research...and value all the information you put in... Cheers Guys...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven Broomfield

Just an observation, but if the photo in Post 1 shows the subject with his wife/girlfriend/female relation, I suspect it is highly unlikely to have been taken in Italy. Much more likely at home on leave or pre-deployment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
49 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Just an observation, but if the photo in Post 1 shows the subject with his wife/girlfriend/female relation, I suspect it is highly unlikely to have been taken in Italy. Much more likely at home on leave or pre-deployment.

Or it could be taken when on break from the front....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme

Hi Everyone, I have spoken to the highlanders museum...and the researcher confirmed that the 9th Scottish Div did not go to Italy....but could not confirm any MGC units...with this information it may be that my great uncle was attached to one of the Divisions that went.. to that end could anyone give me locations were these units were located on the River Piave?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252

I think in some cases it is back to basics - is there anything documentary which indicates the actual periods he was on Italy or is it on the basis of information passed down through the family as to where he had served ?

What is his name / service number ?

Craig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steven Broomfield
51 minutes ago, mikereme said:

Or it could be taken when on break from the front....

 

As in 'Home on leave' like I said. It might be on a break from the front, but not with a wife/girlfriend/female family member. Do you know who the woman is?

43 minutes ago, mikereme said:

Hi Everyone, I have spoken to the highlanders museum...and the researcher confirmed that the 9th Scottish Div did not go to Italy....but could not confirm any MGC units...with this information it may be that my great uncle was attached to one of the Divisions that went.. to that end could anyone give me locations were these units were located on the River Piave?

 

Please don't think I'm being unhelpful, but several people here had already told you the 9th Division didn't go to Italy. If you can supply a name for the chap (as Craig suggests) things may well become a lot easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I think in some cases it is back to basics - is there anything documentary which indicates the actual periods he was on Italy or is it on the basis of information passed down through the family as to where he had served ?

What is his name / service number ?

Craig

Craig, Its more of the latter...my mother (in her 90s) was told were she was a young that the Photo was taken after he returned from Italy...(reason for my question)...i put on the link ref the book (my post no 4)...

 

Surname - Williams,

First Name - Thomas, Samuel.

Service  No 36812

Reported Missing 25/0518 

Died Of Wounds 26/05/18

Buried in CWGC Kortrijk

Edited by mikereme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

As in 'Home on leave' like I said. It might be on a break from the front, but not with a wife/girlfriend/female family member. Do you know who the woman is?

 

Please don't think I'm being unhelpful, but several people here had already told you the 9th Division didn't go to Italy. If you can supply a name for the chap (as Craig suggests) things may well become a lot easier.

Steve, Am not saying anyone is being unhelpful but with the information (as in post 4) it gave me reason to believe that this was the case....and have just read his post...women unknown....so calm down buddy..!

Edited by mikereme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252
Posted (edited)

Ah, I think we have something...
 

So, MGC #36812 and earlier #7294 RW Fusiliers as per SDGW. That at least confirms he changed regiment at some point. Medal Rolls lists only the service as #36812 overseas. Effects records confirms 9th Bn MGC at the time of death.
 

Interestingly

#36817 Jones, also formerly of the RWF
France May - Dec 16
Italy Nov 17 - Apr 18
France Apr 18 - Aug 18

Looks like the service in Italy was with 15Coy MGC (which went with 5th Div to Italy)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007408581%2f01018&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7408581%2f38%2f1007

 

#36818 was also ex-RWF
image.png.035efbde815e2a045c8dd6e865bd50cf.png

 

I think what we have here is the former RWF men who was assigned to their brigade MG company and then put in to the MGC when it was formed.


Craig

Edited by ss002d6252

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
6 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Ah, I think we have something...
 

So, MGC #36812 and earlier #7294 RW Fusiliers as per SDGW. That at least confirms he changed regiment at some point. Medal Rolls lists only the service as #36812 overseas. Effects records confirms 9th Bn MGC at the time of death.
 

Interestingly

#36817 Jones, also formerly of the RWF
France May - Dec 16
Italy Nov 17 - Apr 18
France Apr 18 - Aug 18

Looks like the service in Italy was with 15Coy MGC (which went with 5th Div to Italy)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007408581%2f01018&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7408581%2f38%2f1007

 

#36818 was also ex-RWF
image.png.035efbde815e2a045c8dd6e865bd50cf.png

 

I think what we have here is the former RWF men who was assigned to their brigade MG company and then put in to the MGC when it was formed.


Craig

Craig.. OMG do you know were 5th Div were located in Italy?....also could I contact you direct buddy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ss002d6252

There's a little bit on the Division here - http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/mgcompany.php?pid=10615 - but where these units served is outside my area of knowledge so you'd need to find one of the other forum members who's an expert on the 5th Division.

You can send me private message if you wish but I would add the caveat as above.

Craig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaxD

Watching this thread with interest and admiration for Craig's detective work.  Such a pity that the 15 Brigade MG Company diary for the Italy period has not been digitised.

 

Seems that 9 Scottish Division got mixed up with 9 Battalion MGC but intrigued still though that we started with photo of a man with a Scots bonnet and ended up with a Royal Welsh Fusilier turned MGC.

 

Mikereme - you may not have noticed that Thomas Samuel Williams was originally buried by the Germans and brought in after the war to the British graves area of the cemetery.  (CWGC details).  The 9 Battalion MGC diary for May 1918 does not record him going missing

 

Max

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
18 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Watching this thread with interest and admiration for Craig's detective work.  Such a pity that the 15 Brigade MG Company diary for the Italy period has not been digitised.

 

Seems that 9 Scottish Division got mixed up with 9 Battalion MGC but intrigued still though that we started with photo of a man with a Scots bonnet and ended up with a Royal Welsh Fusilier turned MGC.

 

Mikereme - you may not have noticed that Thomas Samuel Williams was originally buried by the Germans and brought in after the war to the British graves area of the cemetery.  (CWGC details).  The 9 Battalion MGC diary for May 1918 does not record him going missing

 

Max

Hi Max, This has been a great thread...I have just returned from  a Family Pilgrimage from Ypres 26 May 2018 (100th anniversary) ..I knew he was RWF (being from Wrexham myself)...and he died of his wounds from ICRC (MISSING LISTS) he was reported missing 25/05/18....9th Bn MGC A Coy....this was my conclusion that he was wounded and captured in the area of Piccadilly Farm/Darmstrasse Line St Eloi (Ypres), when the Germans Launched their Offensive in the Ypres Salient.   He was supporting the 5th Bn Cameron Highlanders..attached pics..the family at the welsh memorial..from all round the world incl Australia & Isle of Man...Service of Remembrance CWGC (Kortrijk) -and my mother laying a wreath at the area known as Piccadilly farm with the owner who kindly allowed us into his home....I knew that Kortrijk was in German hands during the the time Great uncle was captured and Died of Wounds...we will remember them

dragon.jpg

CWGC.jpg

Pic3.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaxD

Super pictures.

 

Since found his POW record.  It didn't make any sense comparing where the cemetery is located with the area 9 Bn MGC were operating in in May 1918, the two locations are 45 miles apart so the obvious scenario is that he was captured and was en route to a POW camp when he died of his wounds in a German field hospital (the record has no location).  The record is a centrally produced list of deaths produced in July 1918 notated "no further details".  Maybe you have this?

 

Max

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme
5 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Super pictures.

 

Since found his POW record.  It didn't make any sense comparing where the cemetery is located with the area 9 Bn MGC were operating in in May 1918, the two locations are 45 miles apart so the obvious scenario is that he was captured and was en route to a POW camp when he died of his wounds in a German field hospital (the record has no location).  The record is a centrally produced list of deaths produced in July 1918 notated "no further details".  Maybe you have this?

 

Max

 

 

 

 

Cheers Max, I think I have everything with his death but would like to see what you have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MaxD

Link to his card https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4213341/3/2/

 

Enter the PA number in the box and it brings up the (not very helpful) listing.  It is one of many, most arranged by POW camp but, as said, this is a central list without any more detail than is there, in his case Feldlazarett - field hospital.

 

Max

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mikereme

Hi Max...Yes we given this by someone on the Forum also I was given a another PA no PA 37850 and he is fourth from bottom and managed to translate that the cause of death was

"Gun Shot Wound To The Lung"...I released this info to the family during the pilgrimage..very moving

 

Thank you so much for your help...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×