RE or RA

[Black Watch]

I'm assuming these are collar badges, but are they Royal Artillery or Royal engineers, and how do you tell the difference?

[Dragoon]

First 2 RA 7 flames, last one RE 9 flames.( 2 smaller flames on the front )

Hope this helps

 

Chris

Edited 13 June , 2018 by Dragoon

[Black Watch]

Aaaaah, thats great, thanks Chris

 

[Dragoon]

Pleasure,

They are all Officers service dress collar badges in bronze.

 

Chris

[ForeignGong]

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

Pleasure,

They are all Officers service dress collar badges in bronze.

 

Chris

Chris

May be a dumb question but what are the OR one made of please????

 

Peter

[Dragoon]

6 hours ago, ForeignGong said:

Chris

May be a dumb question but what are the OR one made of please????

 

Peter

Hello Peter, not a dumb question at all.

OR's were made of gilding metal, normally known as just 'brass'.

 

Hope this helps

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

Also, the RA & RE OR's didn't wear collar badges during WW1. Before the war, both RE & RA wore the brass universal grenade as a collar badge, this grenade was used by fusilier regiments also.

Collar badges the same as, but smaller than the patterns above were introduced in the 1920's.

 

Chris

 

Attached, universal grenade

 

[FROGSMILE]

The RE were always less ‘dressy’ than the RA and did not adopt a grenade as insignia until after the RA had used it for many years. At first the RE were not especially fussed about the number of flames and used both, 7 and 8 flame versions for their officers collar badge only, before settling for their own 9-flame version.  

 

At first RE other ranks had no grenade badge at all, but after 1881 RE SNCOs were ordered to wear the grenade above their rank stripes as an equivalent insignia to the RA gun badge, in both woven cloth and metal according to the order of dress.  

 

There was still no RE collar badge for other ranks and it was not until 1922 that RE ORs started to wear a gilding metal, small version of their officers’ collar badge with the UBIQUE scroll.  When looking at black and white photos of RE and RA in the late Victorian period it is often only possible to tell which is which by the presence or absence of the grenade collar badge.

Edited 13 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The RE were always less ‘dressy’ than the RA and did not adopt a grenade as insignia until after the RA had used it for many years. At first the RE were not especially fussed about the number of flames and used both, 7 and 8 flame versions for their officers collar badge only, before settling for their own 9-flame version.  

 

At first RE other ranks had no grenade badge at all, but after 1881 RE SNCOs were ordered to wear the grenade above their rank stripes as an equivalent insignia to the RA gun badge, in both woven cloth and metal according to the order of dress.  

 

There was still no RE collar badge for other ranks and it was not until 1922 that RE ORs started to wear a gilding metal, small version of their officers’ collar badge with the UBIQUE scroll.  When looking at black and white photos of RE and RA in the late Victorian period it is often only possible to tell which is which by the presence or absence of the grenade collar badge.

I stand corrected on the RE pre war collars. Thank you FROGSMILE for the the info.

Every day is a school day!

 

Chris

Edited 13 June , 2018 by Dragoon

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Dragoon said:

I stand corrected on the RE pre war collars. Thank you FROGSMILE for the the info.

Every day is a school day!

 

Chris

 

I’m glad to contribute Chris and thank you for your courteous reply.

The little brass and later gilding metal ‘universal grenade’ whose image you posted is an interesting little badge.  First ordered for the collar of RA ORs in 1881, in 1905 it was decreed for Fusilier shoulder straps along with shoulder titles, as well as for the Grenadier Guards equivalent. By WW1’s end it had been used also as a metal alternative to cloth badges for infantry bombers and trench mortar batteries, in addition to the RE arm badge already mentioned.  Further use was adopted by Commonwealth forces.  Some Fusilier regiments, such as the Lancashire Fusiliers and Royal Welsh Fusiliers also used it as their full dress collar badge.  It finally disappeared from the modern equivalent of the  Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries in 2006, when the latter regiment was merged with the Royal Regiment of Wales.  An unbroken line of usage of 125 years!  I wonder if that is a record for a single piece of Insignia.

Edited 14 June , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I’m glad to contribute Chris and thank you for your courteous reply.

The little brass and later gilding metal ‘universal grenade’ whose image you posted is an interesting little badge.  First ordered for the collar of RA ORs in 1881, in 1905 it was decreed for Fusilier shoulder straps along with shoulder titles, as well as for the Grenadier Guards equivalent. By WW1’s end it had been used also as a metal alternative to cloth badges for infantry bombers and trench mortar batteries, in addition to the RE arm badge already mentioned.  Further use was adopted by Commonwealth forces.  Some Fusilier regiments, such as the Lancashire Fusiliers and Royal Welsh Fusiliers also used it as their full dress collar badge.  It finally disappeared from the modern equivalent of the  Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries in 2006, when the latter regiment was merged with the Royal Regiment of Wales.  An unbroken line of usage of 125 years!  I wonder if that is a record for a single piece of Insignia.

Lovely bit of history about a badge you don't really take much notice of, thank you.

I've about 6 different versions of it, just slight differences.

Going slightly off WW1 but didn't the FWF have it in anodised? 125 years I'd say is a record!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

Lovely bit of history about a badge you don't really take much notice of, thank you.

I've about 6 different versions of it, just slight differences.

Going slightly off WW1 but didn't the FWF have it in anodised? 125 years I'd say is a record!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

Yes Chris, both LF and RWF wore anodised universal grenades after WW2.  Drummers and bandsmen of the latter wore 4 apiece, 2 on collar and 1 on each shoulder strap.  As you say, an item of insignia not much noticed and yet with a great backstory.

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes Chris, both LF and RWF wore anodised universal grenades after WW2.  Drummers and bandsmen of the latter wore 4 apiece, 2 on collar and 1 on each shoulder strap.  As you say, an item of insignia not much noticed and yet with a great backstory.

Cheers FROGSMILE, appreciated.

 

Chris