Guest adrian.field Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Could anyone please inform me how Perth (China Wall) Cemetery got its name. There are buried there, 2 off 5 soldiers of the 3rd battalion Worcestershire Regiment, who were all executed on the 26th July 1915. The place of execution was the Ramparts Ypres, has anyone any idea of the location in Ypres, of those executions. thanks and regards adrian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KONDOA Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Hi Adrian, The Ramparts are the old fortified walls of Ypres adjacent the Menin Gate and bordered by the moat . There is a CWGC cemetery there by that name situated there. Roop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Adrian, No-one really knows for sure where the name Perth came from, but "The Great Wall of China" was a communication trench which crossed the area where the cemetery is. Because of the relatively high water-table in that part of the Salient, it was not possible to dig very deeply, so the trench consisted largely of breastworks - walls made of sandbags. The bleached sandbagged walls zigzagging across the countryside soon earned themselves the name "Great Wall of China" or "China Wall." Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 PS - the other two of the five soldiers executed on that day are buried in Aeroplane Cemetery. All five were originally buried in the Ramparts Cemetery, Ypres. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larneman Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 2 off 5 soldiers of the 3rd battalion Worcestershire Regiment, who were all executed on the 26th July 1915. the other two of the five soldiers executed on that day are buried in Aeroplane Cemetery. 2 plus 2 is 4 and the fifth is buried ... Anybody willing to post any information on who did the excutions, own mates or germans,etc. and why the excutions took place. Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbandyrfc Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Liam, According to Norm Christie, who wrote one of my books "The Canadians on the Somme" the Army procedures for executions were thus: -The soldier's unit was responsible for carrying out the sentence -The soldier could have access to a chaplain if desired -The firing party was made up of one officer and ten men -Before the sentence was carried out, the offending soldier would be identified by an NCO from his unit -The firing party would be assembled before the firing post with their backs turned to the accused. The soldier would be brought before the party. If he could not walk a stretcher would be provided -The soldier would be tied to the post while blindfolded -A medical officer would affix a disc over the soldier's heart -The firing party would turn about with five men kneeling and five men standing -One of the firing party would have a blank loaded in his rifle, the rest would have an actual round. No soldier in the firing party would know which of their group had the blank loaded in his weapon -The command to fire was given by the OIC. -The Medical Officer would examine the accused and ensure that he was dead. If the soldier was not yet dead, the OIC would despatch the soldier with his revolver -The soldier was then buried and all administrative details (including informing the NOK) were completed according to army regulation Rather depressing isn't it Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Adrian, No-one really knows for sure where the name Perth came from, but "The Great Wall of China" was a communication trench which crossed the area where the cemetery is. Because of the relatively high water-table in that part of the Salient, it was not possible to dig very deeply, so the trench consisted largely of breastworks - walls made of sandbags. The bleached sandbagged walls zigzagging across the countryside soon earned themselves the name "Great Wall of China" or "China Wall." Tom Tom, I found that China Wall explanation quite interesting, for I myself had often wondered ... (I had even thought that 'China Wall' had something to do with the screens erected on the north side of Menin Road, to block the view for the German artillery, screens near Hell fire corner, which is not that far off.) You explanation I suppose must be correct. Michael Scott (The Ypres Salient) does not explain 'China Wall', but he does say something about 'Perth' : "The Perth part of the name is thought to come from the fact that the first British burials here were made by the 2nd Cameronians (23rd Brigade, 8th Division." (And he also says : "For some time the cemetery was also known as Halfway house" (page 84)) I have a question though. I was about to ask you whether it was normal practice , after the war that is, to remove men from an existing cemetery (Ramparts Cemetery) to another one, while the first cemetery remained. Or was it because these men had been executed ? But then I read in Michael Scott : Corporal F. Ives and Pte Fellows were among the group of 5 men executed "on the ramparts" in Ypres on 26 July 1915. Their graves were moved here after the War while the other three were moved to Aeroplane Cemetery." I couldn't help noticing that M. Scott doesn't mention the cemetery, he only says : "on the ramparts ... were moved here." So maybe the execution and first burial was not at the present Ramparts Cemetery ? (For the other 3 men, later moved to Aeroplane Cem., he writes the same : "They were originally buried on the ramparts". Not really important, only a detail. Just curious. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 The graves that came from the Ramparts that are here did not come from the Ramparts cemetery you know now. There were several small burial sites along the Ramparts, particularly neat the Railway Station end. I suspect these men came from one of these. No graves were removed from the Ramparts (Lille Gate) Cemetery after 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 Thanks, Paul ! Just another question. Which I had in mind when I wrote my previous posting, but somehow I hesitated to ask it, as it is a bit delicate. Were SADs (normally) buried among the other fallen men ? I thought that the 5 executed men "buried on the ramparts" maybe had been denied a burial with their comrades because they had been executed. But since you wrote that there were "several small burial sites on the ramparts" I suppose this was not the case. However, I had some vague idea that maybe executed men were denied a normal burial ... (I must say that somehow in my mind I associated this with the fact that long ago, in our catholic cemeteries, some people (suicides) were denied the right to be buried 'in holy ground'. Of course I do not want to compare these to SADs.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 I think it depended Aurel. There is evidence some were buried apart, but most are scattered amongst those KIA and DOW: Poperinghe New Military Cemetery is a good example. Only a handful have no known grave, and some because their graves were lost in later battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 2 off 5 soldiers of the 3rd battalion Worcestershire Regiment, who were all executed on the 26th July 1915. the other two of the five soldiers executed on that day are buried in Aeroplane Cemetery. 2 plus 2 is 4 and the fifth is buried ... Liam Tom is an ex-teacher, therefore cannot be expected to do sums. Three are buried at Aeroplane Cemetery - next to each other. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 8 January , 2005 Share Posted 8 January , 2005 I couldn't help noticing that M. Scott doesn't mention the cemetery, he only says : "on the ramparts ... were moved here." So maybe the execution and first burial was not at the present Ramparts Cemetery ? (For the other 3 men, later moved to Aeroplane Cem., he writes the same : "They were originally buried on the ramparts". Not really important, only a detail. Just curious. Aurel You're aabsolutely right, Aurel. Apologies to you, Paul and others for not having read my sources carefully enough. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 2 off 5 soldiers of the 3rd battalion Worcestershire Regiment, who were all executed on the 26th July 1915. the other two of the five soldiers executed on that day are buried in Aeroplane Cemetery. 2 plus 2 is 4 and the fifth is buried ... Liam Tom is an ex-teacher, therefore cannot be expected to do sums. Three are buried at Aeroplane Cemetery - next to each other. John Blimey - I'm making my fair share of mistakes tonight. Think I shall keep quiet for a bit! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 Apologies to you, Paul and others for not having read my sources carefully enough. Tom Tom, Not at all ! On the contrary, it gave me the opportunity to learn something that I didn't know so far : that men were buried in small ramparts cemeteries ! Paul, Thanks. I have done some checking myself since (e.g. Bleuet Farm Cem.), and there seems to be no indication that these SADs had been moved from another cemetery, or had had a separate burial after being executed. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest adrian.field Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 To you all who have replied, I extend my thanks, you have all given me more than enough information. What a website this is proving to be, maths lessons as well. Happy New Year to you all. adrian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 I may be remembering this completely wrong but I am sure I visited a small cemetery nearby that was sited on or at a bick or tile works, if that is the case then the local clay may have been suitable for china/pottery making??? Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 Fred, Was it this one ? Then it was Tuileries British Cemetery. (Tuileries = tile works) 300 meters more south towards Zillebeke village. Whether the name somehow refers to China Wall ? No idea. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 9 January , 2005 Share Posted 9 January , 2005 I visited the Village Cemetery at Locre (Loker) a long time ago where there are 3 graves( if my memory serves me correct 2 Royal Scots Fusiliers and 1Lincolnshire Regt., ) I was informed that these men were S.A.D. These graves are seperate from the other British War Graves in that Cemetery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 10 January , 2005 Share Posted 10 January , 2005 Aurel You are correct, I just could not think of the name. Thanks Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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