1917 German map with english trench names. Geheim

[morrisc8]

I have a german map of part of Arras dated 10.2.17 that has british and german trenches in it. Secret "Geheim" on the top and it has some of the names of the british trenches  , Infantry road, ice street, ivy street + more names on it as well as the german names of there trenches.  Would they have captured a british map and pows to get that info.

This is part of the german map 1.5000. How good are there maps against the british maps.

   Keith

Edited 2 June , 2018 by morrisc8

[genegwf]

Nice map! Seem easier to read than British maps.

 

Gene

[morrisc8]

This is the whole map. Shows british and German trenches .

Edited 7 June , 2018 by morrisc8

[trajan]

That is a very interesting piece! Can / will you give us a detail of the coding / text at the bottom? It should say who prepared the thing.

 

That aside, I do wonder how far back this tradition of 'Blue against red' goes? I have seen Ottoman maps that use the same coding, i.e., blue for 'us', and red for 'them'!

Edited 7 June , 2018 by trajan

[morrisc8]

If you can not read it i will rescan. Has just the date made and do not take in the trenches + made from the air photos.?

[morrisc8]

Blue are German trenches and Red are British trenches

Edited 7 June , 2018 by morrisc8

[trajan]

2 hours ago, morrisc8 said:

Blue are German trenches and Red are British trenches

 

 

Thanks. So, 'Situation plan made on the basis of captured maps. Corrected and positions [plotted] from aerial photographs by the Flying detatchment"

[morrisc8]

          Thanks  trajan for the  reply still need to make out the other info on the map.

[Howard]

There are quite a few examples of maps from both world wars that were drawn by others than Germany but with German text etc. Some of the German invasion plans from the 1940s are British OS maps with a German legend, one even had the original OS copyright notice.

 

There are separate Belgian 1:80,000 series maps with either Belgian, British, French or German legends, it would be easy to think a map was "German" by its marginal data but really they had taken the sensible option of nicking someone else's. After all, what if the originating nation complained, what would they do, go to war over it?

 

Some maps are clearly headed as being drawn from enemy maps, others merely look like they have been.

 

Howard

[trajan]

13 hours ago, morrisc8 said:

Blue are German trenches and Red are British trenches

 

 

You have this bit more or less correct - "It is strongly forbidden to take this map into the forward lines". Other bit here is "Verm[essungs] Abteilung 9 [Survey section 9], Mapping Office Goeulzin"

[morrisc8]

           I do like the  "It is strongly forbidden part. Thanks .

           I think K1,K2 and K3 are German front lines, the xxxx are barbed wire, what is the British trench x30,x31,x32,x77 ect in red mg post? and numbers in blue                 ref points. 

           The top of the map shows just how close the British and German front lines are.

           Green, light Railway line and sector B6,C1, ect.

           On part of this map is a green house above number 59,could this be a British HQ?.

            Thanks for any help. There is no index on the map.

             Keith

             

         

           

Edited 8 June , 2018 by morrisc8

[Ron Clifton]

British trench maps did not normally show British trenches in any great detail. Those that did were classified as Secret. It looks as if the German map was copied from one of these, which were not supposed to be taken anywhere that they were likely to be captured.

 

Ron

[trajan]

4 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

 ... It looks as if the German map was copied from one of these, which were not supposed to be taken anywhere that they were likely to be captured.

 

To judge from the caption I offered a translation for in no.7 this is indeed a captured map - a Beutekarten!

[trajan]

This might help with some of the symbols - http://pickelhauben.net/german-tactical-symbols-1914/ although that is the 1914 system and the map is 1917.

 

Trajan

[morrisc8]

Thank you for the map symbols, and i think a British HQ with maps could have been captured with the trench info on it..

This map also shows the German front lines so would of been of interest to the British if captured.

Edited 8 June , 2018 by morrisc8

[stiletto_33853]

10.000 scale 1/3/17

 

[stiletto_33853]

[stiletto_33853]

[morrisc8]

Thanks for adding your map and they are printed on paper unlike the british trench maps that are on linen.

[morrisc8]

I have just bought this German map, I think it is south of my Arras one.

 

[JohnC]

For Morris and Stilleto - Nice maps, thanks for sharing them. I'm late to this thread but I share you interest in German trench maps. When I have a moment I'll post some photos of a few of mine.

Stilleto - I notice your interest in 8th Rifle Brigade. They were billeted in my village, some of them just a few hundred yards from where I live. Check our village web site https://grayshottheritage.com/features/new-finds/#capbadge

Cheers,

John

[JohnC]

I think the green 'house' referred to at post 11 is the symbol for a trench mortar/minenwerfer.

[morrisc8]

Thank you JohnC  for the info. I have a few german maps and air recon photos.

[stiletto_33853]

On 27/11/2019 at 11:11, JohnC said:

 

Stilleto - I notice your interest in 8th Rifle Brigade. They were billeted in my village, some of them just a few hundred yards from where I live. Check our village web site https://grayshottheritage.com/features/new-finds/#capbadge

Cheers,

John

Hi John,

They most certainly were. If you need the locations in Grayshott where they were billeted let me know. I have the letters of an 8th Soldier during his time at Grayshott, all his training in the local area etc etc. Grayshott Hall was "C" Companies billets, the then owner was an ex Rifle Brigade officer who lost his son with the 2nd RB. The working mens club, school etc. all still there I believe. His letters make note of several locals, their kindness and names the locals where concerts had been given for them.

 

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

Keith,

You might want to glance at this old thread where a lot of aerial pictures of the area were placed with great work from another Andy transferring them onto trench maps. These all came from the family of an officer who was in the 14th Division intelligence staff.

 

Andy