"Buried elsewhere in this cemetery"

[Moonraker]

Walking past St Michael's Cemetery in Tilehurst, Reading, I noticed a CWGC headstone bearing the name of

 

Able Seaman G King

 

and inscribed "Buried elsewhere in this cemetery". You'll see that CWGC describes it as a "special memorial", though to me it looked like a standard CWGC stone.

 

Googling led to one further example, on the Long, Long Trail and relating to 83 Serjeant Loggey DCM of the Machine Gun Corps.

 

Any thoughts on such an inscription?

 

In the case of Loggey, perhaps there were so many bodies to be interred that confusion arose?

 

And in King's case, he was married to a local girl and perhaps when she died they were buried together in a new grave. Or perhaps his remains were removed to a family grave? If so, the "Buried elsewhere ..." was presumably annotated to his original headstone?

 

Moonraker

 

 

[David Ridgus]

I wonder if what makes it a 'special memorial' Is the fact that although it is the standard headstone there are no remains beneath it. 

 

David

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, David Ridgus said:

I wonder if what makes it a 'special memorial' Is the fact that although it is the standard headstone there are no remains beneath it. 

 

David

 

   I think it is that remains cannot be located with certainty. - but there is certainty that they are in the cemetery somewhere-usually it is a "common" grave that can only be roughly located. I have a similar for my first casualty-Valentine James Smith,RFA- DOW at a German field hospital at Mons after the battle in 1914- Buried with 2 others in a local churchyard but the remains could not be located after the war by CWGC and a special memorial (now in St Symphorien) was put up. It seems likely that when the Germans cleared Mons and buried the dead(both sides) at St Symphorien, they left the 3 as they were because they had already been buried in consecrated ground.

[SiegeGunner]

A big municipal cemetery local to me has a large 'screen wall' memorial listing a number of WW1 men who are buried elsewhere in the cemetery.  Most of them were buried in a plot of 'pauper's graves' that was later covered with about 12 feet of earth to form an embankment that has since been used for more recent burials. and a few are in unmarked graves around the cemetery.  It sounds as if the single CWGC headstone in St Michael's, Tilehurst, is serving the same purpose, as a small 'screen wall'. 

[johnboy]

Is it possible to get a date of erection of the stone?Or furter info from the cemetry authority? Something must have happened between burial and erection of the stone.

[Gareth Davies]

There is some more info here:  

 

 

 

[Ron Clifton]

"Believed/Known to be buried in this cemetery" are usually found around the wall of a cemetery, and are categorised as "special memorials" because they do not have a plot number for an actual grave. This nomenclature is very common in CWGC cemeteries.

 

Ron

[AOK4]

I think it is that remains cannot be located with certainty. - but there is certainty that they are in the cemetery somewhere-usually it is a "common" grave that can only be roughly located. I have a similar for my first casualty-Valentine James Smith,RFA- DOW at a German field hospital at Mons after the battle in 1914- Buried with 2 others in a local churchyard but the remains could not be located after the war by CWGC and a special memorial (now in St Symphorien) was put up. It seems likely that when the Germans cleared Mons and buried the dead(both sides) at St Symphorien, they left the 3 as they were because they had already been buried in consecrated ground.

 

The graves in Obourg were not moved by the Germans during the war (they usually didn't rebury graves from communal cemeteries as they were considered "safe", meaning that care for them would be no problem as the communes would take care of them after the war), the German graves from Obourg were moved to Ath only in 1932.

[Malcolm Linham]

Pals 

 

 According to Courage Remembered ( 1989 book on the CWGC) the official definition of a Special Memorial Headstone  is " Markers erected to commemorate war dead whose remains are elsewhere eg in an unmaintainable grave."  

 

Malcolm 

[SiegeGunner]

6 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

"Believed/Known to be buried in this cemetery" are usually found around the wall of a cemetery, and are categorised as "special memorials" because they do not have a plot number for an actual grave. This nomenclature is very common in CWGC cemeteries.

 

Ron

 

Indeed, but this is a civil cemetery in the UK.

[johnboy]

It seems  ww1 dead were buried in 'north part'. Has te church been extendedor church hall been added on this ground?

[Moonraker]

That part of the cemetery where King's headstone is lies to the west on the other side of the road to the church and, presumably, the original churchyard. The church dates from the 12th century and has been altered several times, including in 1993 when an  extension was completed.

 

Moonraker

[Alan24]

Another UK example here West Hill Cemetery Winchester.

 

The newspaper article from the Hampshire Chronicle will explain the circumstance.

 

AN OMISSION lasting more than 100 years has finally been rectified.

A soldier who died near Winchester in the First World War now has an official stone over his grave.

Captain John Henry Nicholson was honoured in a special ceremony at West Hill Cemetery.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has placed a headstone 102 years after he died.

Captain Nicholson, of the Army Ordnance Department (AOD), died aged 51 at 7.30am on November 6, 1915 at Avington Park Camp, when he accidentally shot himself while cleaning his own revolver.

 

At the time, authorities never reported his death to the CWGC meaning he was never given a Commission headstone or remembered on the Roll of Honour.

However, thanks to John’s great grandson, David Nicholls, who researched his death and brought it to the attention of the CWGC, John can now be commemorated by the Commission.

Born in the Alresford, John joined the army when he was 19 years old. Throughout his career as a professional soldier, he was also a Senior Warrant Officer and Company Sergeant Major in the Royal Artillery, until he started working for the AOD.

 

He married his wife, Alice Benson, in 1889 and they had seven children, Grace, Sidney, May, Hilda, Kenneth, Cyril and Elsie.

Tragically, John and Alice lost two daughters - Grace to Scarlet Fever when she was only seven years old and two-year old May, to diphtheria.

Les Kibble, CWGC’s regional manager for the South East, said: “We are always honoured to be able to commemorate those who died during both world wars and to make sure they are remembered for their sacrifice – whether their death was on the battlefields abroad or here on home soil.

 

“Now that John has a Commission headstone, everyone who comes to visit this cemetery will know he fought for his country and that he should always be remembered for that.”

David Nicholls, the great grandson, added: “We are very grateful to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for helping us get my great grandfather a Commission Headstone.

“According to press reports at the time of his death, John Henry was a well-known and respected officer in both Colchester Garrison and the wider community. He was a devout Christian, a Presbyterian, and an active member of Lion Walk Church, Colchester.

 

“During his previous posting of three years in Hong Kong, he was involved with building a mission there. On a lighter side, my great grandfather was also a keen sportsman, capable of beating much younger men at tennis when he was 50 years old.”

 

 

 

[AOK4]

36 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Another UK example here West Hill Cemetery Winchester.

 

The newspaper article from the Hampshire Chronicle will explain the circumstance.

 

AN OMISSION lasting more than 100 years has finally been rectified.

A soldier who died near Winchester in the First World War now has an official stone over his grave.

Captain John Henry Nicholson was honoured in a special ceremony at West Hill Cemetery.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has placed a headstone 102 years after he died.

Captain Nicholson, of the Army Ordnance Department (AOD), died aged 51 at 7.30am on November 6, 1915 at Avington Park Camp, when he accidentally shot himself while cleaning his own revolver.

 

At the time, authorities never reported his death to the CWGC meaning he was never given a Commission headstone or remembered on the Roll of Honour.

However, thanks to John’s great grandson, David Nicholls, who researched his death and brought it to the attention of the CWGC, John can now be commemorated by the Commission.

Born in the Alresford, John joined the army when he was 19 years old. Throughout his career as a professional soldier, he was also a Senior Warrant Officer and Company Sergeant Major in the Royal Artillery, until he started working for the AOD.

 

He married his wife, Alice Benson, in 1889 and they had seven children, Grace, Sidney, May, Hilda, Kenneth, Cyril and Elsie.

Tragically, John and Alice lost two daughters - Grace to Scarlet Fever when she was only seven years old and two-year old May, to diphtheria.

Les Kibble, CWGC’s regional manager for the South East, said: “We are always honoured to be able to commemorate those who died during both world wars and to make sure they are remembered for their sacrifice – whether their death was on the battlefields abroad or here on home soil.

 

“Now that John has a Commission headstone, everyone who comes to visit this cemetery will know he fought for his country and that he should always be remembered for that.”

David Nicholls, the great grandson, added: “We are very grateful to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for helping us get my great grandfather a Commission Headstone.

“According to press reports at the time of his death, John Henry was a well-known and respected officer in both Colchester Garrison and the wider community. He was a devout Christian, a Presbyterian, and an active member of Lion Walk Church, Colchester.

 

“During his previous posting of three years in Hong Kong, he was involved with building a mission there. On a lighter side, my great grandfather was also a keen sportsman, capable of beating much younger men at tennis when he was 50 years old.”

 

 

 

 

Isn't that the wrong badge? The Army Ordnance Corps only became Royal in 1918 IIRC.

Edited 7 December , 2020 by AOK4
typo

[Michael Pegum]

1 hour ago, Annaquinn said:

... as a religious rule, it is a sin to move a dead human from one place to another.

 

Which religion? Which denomination?

[Marco]

5 minutes ago, Michael Pegum said:

 

Which religion? Which denomination?

 

Jewish

[keithmroberts]

I know of two Buried Elsewhere chaps in Shipley, St Paul's Churchyard. My impression is that all gravestones were removed, and some just laid flat, but presumably the CWGC insisted that they should have a standing marker.

[Michael Pegum]

In the case of Reggie Wyndham, in Zillebeke churchyard, I think artillery damage subsequent to the burial meant that the grave could not be identified.

 

Edited 8 December , 2020 by Michael Pegum

[Matlock1418]

On 07/12/2020 at 09:55, AOK4 said:

Isn't that the wrong badge? The Army Ordnance Corps only became Royal in 1918 IIRC.

I don't think so.

I believe the RAOC decided that all commemorations, including the AOC ones, would be badged as RAOC - probably keen on plugging their new 'Royal' prefix [from 28 Nov. 1918] - I have never seen an AOC badged headstone.  I believe this was official policy of the Corps and thus the I/CWGC. [I am not aware of any policy to change this approach]

Rather in the same way the RAF originally decided to officially badge many RFC stones as RAF, even if died/inscribed as RFC - to plug their new status as the nation's newest armed force - however these stones seem to be now changing to RFC as headstones get periodically/necessarily get replaced [the RAF now seem to have lost their 'newbie' status and wish to now more fully recognise their earliest forebears]

The RASC and RAVC who also got their Royal prefix the same date however seem to have gone more according to date have their earlier ASC & AVC versions and I think re-badging may sometimes take place if stones are replaced and accordingly if a new commemoration].

But not AOC badged so far as I know.

:-) M

 

Edit: Just looked again at the photo above, this time with a magnifier - Interesting to note that although the CWGC site commemorates Capt. Nicholson as AOC https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75458846/JOHN HENRY NICHOLSON his quite recent special memorial stone is inscribed with RAOC too.

Edited 9 December , 2020 by Matlock1418
Edit.