Over sexed, over paid, and over here!

[Guest Gary Davidson]

I know there must have been some interesting experiences when American fighter pilots arrived in Europe at the beginning of WW1 to fight alongside Allied Aces. Are there any books which touch upon this aspect of the war in the air?

Gary

[Dolphin]

Gary

You might like to read Harold Hartney's Up and At 'Em (he was a Canadian RFC veteran who transfered to the USAS); Hostile Skies by James Hudson (a history of the USAS); and Horses Don't Fly by Frederick Libby (an American who flew with the RFC and then joined the USAS).

These should help you.

Gareth

[Guest Gary Davidson]

Gareth --

Thanks a ton. I am fascinated with this aspect of the war. I will try and get my hands on these.

Gary

[andigger]

I realize that I am opening myself to lots of glares and certainly unkind thoughts, but I just had to share this thought.....

Whenever I hear the over-sexed, over paid quote about the Americans. I remind myself there is a similar, though less well know quote about the Brits. "The problem with the Brits is that they are under-sexed, under-paid, and under Eisenhower."

in humor..... Andy

[Neil Burns]

Battery Press

Hi Gary,

You may already know this but, the Battery Press in Nashville has a number of reprints of Aero Squadron Histories and other aspects of the US contribution to the air war.

Take care,

Neil

[Guest Gary Davidson]

Neil --

I was not aware of the Battery Press series of reprints. Thank you. What a treasure trove of information!

Cheers,

Gary

[Guest Gary Davidson]

When young, talented American aviators were coming to the front to fight, was duty and patriotism the only thing driving them? Or was it some cases an ambitious quest for glory? I am sure these young pilots were influenced by the media of the time which probably idolized and romanticized the WW1 Ace in Europe?

To add to that: Was there ever rivalry (jealousy) among aces of the same squadron?

Gary

[Dolphin]

Gary

I'm sure that some of the US pilots heading for Europe were inevitably on a quest for glory, but for many the guiding factor would have been a sense of duty - a job that had to be done. See War Birds - the Diary of an Unknown Aviator by the US ace Elliott White Springs (based on the experiences of his friend John Grider).

As far being influenced by stories in the media, I believe that those from the US would probably have been well aware of the deeds of the Americans serving with the French in the Escadrille Lafayette and other elements of the Lafayette Flying Corps.

Some of the French airmen, such as Guynemer and Dorme, were pretty well known at the time, but I doubt that too many Americans would have been aware of the names of the leading British and Empire aces, including the former US citizens serving in the RFC, RNAS and RAF. The British had a general policy of not publicising their leading fighter pilots, as it was felt to be unfair to the majority of airmen, who were in bomber and reconnaisance units. There was also a belief that too much publicity to particular pilots wasn't fair to other, less successful, pilots in scout squadrons. Of course, there was also the adverse affect on morale when a well known airman became a casualty.

I doubt that airmen from the other Allied belligerents, such as Belgium, Italy and Russia, would have had much newspaper space in the US. On the other hand, the deeds of German pilots were publicised, and some of that publicity doubtless made its way over the Atlantic to the USA. In summary, the would-be champions from the US would have known that the air war was on, that's why they made their way into the USAS, but not the details.

A lot of the interest in the deeds of the fighter pilots, and their victories, is a post-war phenomenom.

As for rivalry within squadrons, there was some, but not a great deal. Some fighter pilots were consicous of their tally, and worked to increase it, eg Bishop, while others didn't seem to worry about numbers, it was all part of the team effort.

You will probably find the recent series of books from Osprey Publications of great interest. If you haven't already seen them, you could look for:

No 32 Albatros Aces of World War I by Norman Franks

No 33 Nieuport Aces of World War I by Norman Franks

No 39 SPAD VII Aces of World War I by Jon Guttman

No 40 Fokker Dr.I Aces of World War I by Norman Franks & Greg van Wyngarden

No 42 American Aces of World War I by Norman Franks

No 46 Austro-Hungarian Aces of World War I by Christopher Chant

No 47 SPAD XII/XIII Aces of World War I by Jon Guttman

No 45 British and Empire Aces of World War I by Christopher Shores

No 48 Dolphin and Snipe Aces of World War I by Norman Franks

No 52 Sopwith Camel Aces of World War I by Norman Franks

No 53 Fokker D.VII Aces of World War I - Part 1 by Norman Franks & Greg van Wyngarden

No 62 Sopwith Triplane Aces of World War I by Norman Franks

No 63 Fokker D.VII Aces of World War I - Part 2 by Norman Franks & Greg van Wyngarden

They should keep you going for a while.

Regards

Gareth

[Guest Gary Davidson]

Gareth --

First of all, thank you for that. Since joining this forum I have found myself in need of a much bigger bookshelf!

In your opinion, were the German Aces more conscious of their tally than the Allies? It seems as if there was a national pride operating in German that put constant pressure on pilots to increase the personal tally. In Germany weren't medals awarded for acheiving a certain level of aerial kills? That wasn't the case in other countries, was it? I guess what I'm asking, was the German air war more focused on the individual, while the Allies more focued on the group?

Gary

[Dolphin]

Gary

The Germans hierarchy did make an effort to publicise fighter pilots and the number of victories attributed to particular fliers was well known. This practice started with the early Fokker Eindekker men such as Boelcke, Immelmann and Wintgens, then continued through to the Armistice. In the early days of air fighting there was a policy of awarding the Pour le Merité for a fixed number of victories, the precise number varied as the War went on and victories became more common, before being abandoned. The publicity system backfired when a leading pilot was killed, with the consequence that morale took a bit of a beating.

You should make room on your bookshelves for the excellent Grub Street publications dealing with the Aces. See http://www.grubstreet.co.uk/wwi_hardback.htm

Regards

Gareth

[Guest Gary Davidson]

It seems chivalry was still alive at least in the early years of WW1. Witness Richthofen's burial by the Allies after he was shot down over enemy territory. It has also been depicted in literature and movies. For example, in Dawn Patrol (1938) there is depicted the chivalrous gesture of dropping a killed aviator’s helmet and goggles on his own air field as a tip of the hat to his valor. My question is, did this kind of thing really happen?

Gary

[Dolphin]

Gary

There certainly was a degree of chivalrous behavior among fliers of all nations in the early years of the War. Being fellow-battlers against the elements, and the eccentricities of the aircraft used, as well as the enemy, probably gave all airmen a feeling of a common bond. Hence, it was not uncommon for notes relating to the fate of shot-down airmen to be dropped over the enemy lines, or for wreaths to be dropped before the funeral of a prominent flier.

Another well known aspect of the air war was the practice of taking a downed flier to the mess of the unit that had brought him down, where he would be treated as a guest. As well as the good manners, there was probably an intelligence function behind this behaviour .

The chivalry generally faded away on the Western Front as aerial fighting intensified, but it occasionally surfaced. The airmen over more remote Fronts, such as Palestine, kept up the tradition a bit longer.

As an example of the general good behaviour towards downed enemies, an extract from Richard Holmes' Tommy is below. The writer was an artillery officer who is describing a grave in front of his gun position in territory recently taken from the Germans. The flier referred to is Lt John George Will of No 29 Sqn RFC, who was killed while flying Nieuport 17 A6751 on 25 March 1917. John Will played Rugby for Scotland as a wing threequarter in seven internationals in 1912 and 1914, scoring 5 tries. The location of Lt Will's grave was later lost.

I hope this helps.

Gareth

[Guest Gary Davidson]

Gareth --

Thanks for illuminating that subject.

Slightly off-topic: I was reading recently about a WW1 pilot using “a plane blocked up for range-firing.” This pilot was apparently at some kind of machine gun range on the airfield, taking target practice on the ground, while two Armorers held down the tail of the plane in the full blast of the slipstream. Have you heard of this practice?

Gary

[Dolphin]

Gary

I think that you are referring to the routine exercise where an aeroplane's tail was elevated at a firing range, so as to assume a level flying position. This was done to calibrate the gun(s) and the sight, so that the bullets would hit the spot that the pilot was aiming at. It was something that had to be done whenever a gun, sight, or synchronising gear had been moved or worked on.

Regards

Gareth

[PAB]

Returning to the original thread. Combat Report by Bill Lambert an american flying with 24 Sqn in 1918 (winning one of the early DFCs) lost my copy years ago - Is it still available?

Regards,

P.

[182 CEF]

In War Birds - the Diary of an Unknown Aviator, it is mentioned that in the US squardons if 3 Americans all attacked a German and shot id down they all get the credit of one "Kill" .Where in British squadrons 3 men would have had to split the "Kill" and get 1/3rd each. If this is true I can see it leading to some hard feelings.

Dean

[Dolphin]

Dean

There was no official RFC/RNAS/RAF policy on shared victories. In most cases, when a number of airmen participated in downing an enemy, a full victory was credited to each participating airman (including both the pilot and observer of a two-seater) but only one victory was added to the Flight and Squadron total. However, other units, particularly those in the RNAS, split the victory between the men involved.

Apart from the Germans, all the warring nations (including Austria-Hungary) generally treated shared victories as an additional credit to each of the airmen who took part.

Regards

Gareth

[182 CEF]

If this is so, then how did some RFC Pilots end up with ? and 1/3 or ? and1/2

I have read in several books that "kills" were shared as 1/2s or 1/3s unless only one man put a claim in for the "Kill"

I'm not trying to start an argument, but this is what I have seen and read.

Dean

[Dolphin]

Dean

As I said, there was no official policy. Some squadrons divided the claims into fractions, but most didn't and credited all concerned with a victory, eg on 6 May 1918 a single DFW C-type (Ltn d R Georg Jünemann/Ltn Georg Barth of FA 14) was attributed as a victory each to Capt D R MacLaren, Capt C H Marchant, 2Lt J H Smith, 2Lt H T W Mainwaring and 2Lt V M Yeates of No 46 Sqn.

See Above the Trenches by Christopher Shores, Norman Franks and Russell Guest - the most comprehensive account of British and Empire aces.

Regards

Gareth