5 Bty 45 Bde RFA position 27 May 1918

[David_Blanchard]

I have a document relating to the 5 Bty on 27 May occupying 2 positions at CLEMENT but wondering if anyone could tell me what the reference c. 123 and c.115 stand for 

 

Thanks

 

David 

[PJS]

David,

 

Can you supply the relevant section of the document to provide a little more context? 

 

Peter

[David_Blanchard]

This is the complete document 

[David_Blanchard]

This is a trench map of the area April 1918

[PJS]

Well, I don't have an answer but I will post what I am thinking ...

 

The War Diary for the 45th Bde RFA says:

12^th        4 Guns per battery went into action, relieving French half batteries which were withdrawn to positions near GERNICOURT.

13th       Relief completed. Bde. HQ relieved HQ GROUPEMENT PAUL. 18pdr Bty positions were on N. edges of BOIS CLAUSARDE & BOIS MARTEAU. 57th Battery took over unoccupied position  on S. edge of BOIS DES BOCHES. Bde HQ was established on the BOIS DES BUTTES in close touch with 23rd Inf. Bde.

 

And this information matches the bottom half of the Relief Table document you posted. The War Diary locates the 18pdr battery positions on the North edges of BOIS CLAUSARDE & BOIS MARTEAU which matches your document's statement that the rear HQ was at MARTEAU-CLAUSARDE. From other war diaries we know that PC TUNNEL was the 23 Infantry Brigade HQ. And I believe that the 57th Battery was a Howitzer Battery.

 

So if we look at the RFA map below the Howitzers are way off to the right and the 18pdrs are above BOIS CLAUSARDE, BOIS MARTEAU and BOIS DE MINES. Later narrative in the RFA War Diary positions 1st Battery at BOIS DE MINE so the 3rd and 5th Batteries were above (North of) BOIS CLAUSARDE & BOIS MARTEAU.

 

 

So, my thinking is that the Relief Table describes a single location for 1st Battery, and two locations each for 5th and 3rd Batteries. And those coordinates (C. 130, C. 126 and C. 123, C. 112) tie to the positions shown above.

 

Unfortunately those locations span 4 map grid boxes from the Berry au Bac 20,000 Map. Like I said, I don't have any answers but maybe my rambling will spark something ...

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 May , 2018 by PJS

[David_Blanchard]

I agree with most of what you add but I think 5 Bty guns were further forward behind Bois Franco-Allemand. All of this is fairly important as I will be guiding relatives of one of the gunners taken pow on 27 May and the nephew of Captain John Hamon Massey Dow on 27 May and also Battery commander on the centenary on Saturday.

 

David 

Edited 24 May , 2018 by David_Blanchard

[David_Blanchard]

I enclose a sketch map of the area made by Mrs Massey having talked with survivors of the Battery- obviously there are some errors here not least the position of Pontavert.

[PJS]

Your map looks good to me and it does seem reasonable that the guns from each battery would line up in the general direction that they were going to be firing in. And your sketch map above clearly shows that orientation.

 

If I put those 4 positions into what I think the grid locations would be I get, very roughly (1979, 2980), (1985, 2981), (1980, 2978) and (1985, 2978). Still not seeing how you could tie those coordinates to a single number, like C. 130.

 

I will keep thinking about it.

 

Good luck this weekend.

 

Peter

Edited 24 May , 2018 by PJS

[PJS]

Further down in the War Diary, after the Relief table, is the following. The "Name" column gives a number of C. names and L. names that appear to refer to map positions.

 

 

 

[PJS]

And I see that PC DIVISION was located at (2177, 2955). In the past I've seen some locations given with only two pairs of numbers, like (15, 97). And I guess you just have to "know" which square they are referencing. So perhaps the Positions above are relative to PC DIVISION?  Just a thought.