Ships and Navies

[tonycad]

My uncle's ship was torpedoed and sunk with all hands in February 1918. In the Lloyds Register of merchant ships sunk by enemy action in WW1 the ship is named SS Eleanor.

The ship was 'hired' by the Royal Navy to carry munitions to the Mediterranean, and as a consequence its seamen were re-classified as RN personnel.

In tracing my Uncle's death certificate in the RN lists, I found that the ship was named MFA Eleanor. This must be the same ship, but I wonder what the initials stood for. Merchant Fleet Auxillary perhaps.

Could some kind and learned Pal help with this.

Thank you.

Tony

[Malcolm]

Merchant Fleet Auxiliary, miscellaneous vessels, Eleanor, Pendant No Y6.1, launched 1888 of 1980 tons, mine carrier from 3/8/1914sunk 12/2/1918 by submarine near St Catherine's.

Dittmar and Colledge, British Warships 1914-1919

Aye

Malcolm

[Michael Lowrey]

The submarine which sank Eleanor was the UB 57 under Oblt.z.S. Johann Lohs. Lohs was one of the top Flanders-based u-boat commanders and won the Pour Le Mérite.

Best wishes,

Michael

[tonycad]

Malcom and Michwel Lowry,

Your replies to my query on the MFA Eleanor have proved to me that this is a really well informed and helpful Forum. I had been researching my uncle's (Henry's) mercantile career for some time, years in fact, and before the modern computer age!), and in a matter of moments you have confirmed many of my findings.

Malcolm - What does 'Pendant No Y6 1' mean. Was it the part of the RN to which Eleanor was attached.

Michael - No, I did not know that Sub Leutnant zur See Johannes Oswald Lohs was awarded the Pour Le Merite, but I am not surprised from his number of sinkings, having attacked 32 merchant ships, most of which were sunk.

He set off on one patrol from Zeebrugge on 31st January 1918, and after sinking a steamer in the Irish Sea, he moved his vessel around to the English Channel, where he sunk MFA Eleanor off the Isle of Wight on 12th February, with the loss of 34 crew. After several more patrols, Lohs set off on his last patrol on 3rd August and on 14th August, was nearing Zeebrugge when he lost radio contact. The German naval authorities concluded that he had presumably hit a mine in the approach channel, coincidentally with the loss of 34 crew.

Several of the crew of U57 were washed ashore at Flushing, in the mouth of the River Scheldt, on 22nd August. Lohs was identified from markings on his underwear, confirmed by the Dutch police. He and his crew were buried in a municipal cemetery in Flushing, and his details were recorded in a register in 1923 by the German authorities.

In March 1941, during the German occupation of Holland, Lohs's body was exhumed, and reburied with with 23 other German sevicemen.

He was further exhumed in January 1948, and reburied in the cemetery at Ysselsteyn, close to the German border, where many Germans from the Arnhem battle were buried.

One day I propose to visit the grave at Ysselsteyn to commemorate that chance encounter of Lohs and Uncle Henry in the English Channel in 1918.

I hope you find that this has put some flesh on the bones of the written record

One further query Henry was a 'donkeyman', and I wonder what the equivelent rank would have been in the Royal Navy,

Tony

[Malcolm]

Malcolm - What does 'Pendant No Y6 1' mean. Was it the part of the RN to which Eleanor was attached.

No Y6.1 to Y6. 8 were Mine Carriers. Y5.1 to Y5.8 were frozen meat carriers etc.

Basically the ID number of the vessel for Admiralty purposes.

A donkeyman ran the donkey engines that lifted the stores on and off the ship.

Aye

Malcolm

[Michael Lowrey]

Tony,

You rather severely uncount Oberleutnant zur See Lohs' successes. I have him responible for sinking 79 ships of 145,959 tons plus damaging an additional 15 ships of 85,420 tons during his time in command of UC 75 and UB 57. Of the Flanders submarine commanders, only Otto Steinbrinck and Reinhold Saltzwedel were responisble for sinking more tonnage. (To be fair, Lohs' first four patrol were while assigned to the I. U-Flottille, HSF -- he's fifth in tonnage while serving in Flanders.) I have UB 57's KTB on microfilm and can send you a scan of Lohs' account of sinking Eleanor if that would be of use to you.

I am also rather familiar with the the details of the loss of UB 57 -- I handle much of the WWI information for the uboat.net website and also work with Belgian sport divers to locate and identify U-boat wrecks. A wreck belived to be that of UB 57 was located in the summer of 2003.

best wishes,

Michael

[tonycad]

Michael,

Thank you again. The information keeps on coming.

The material I gathered on Oberleuntnant zur See Lohs was to complete the picture of Uncle Henry's mercantile marine career, and I certainly did not do Lohs justice in referring only to U57's record.

I would be exteremely grateful for a scan of Lohs's account of the sinking of Eleanora, which I can add as a final note to Henry's account.

As a matter of interest, a few of the U57 class boats were broken-up after the war in the Giant's Graveyard at Briton Ferry in the mouth of the River Neath, a few miles from Henry's home town of Swansea.

Tony

[Michael Lowrey]

Tony,

The submarine Lohs commanded was UB 57, not U 57. The U-series were large ocean-going boats. UBs were smaller torpedo-attack boats; UCs were smaller minlaying submarines. The third generation of UBs, the UBIII class which included UB 48 and higher, were still significant submarines with five torpedo tubes plus an 88mm or 105 mm deck gun and sufficiant range to get to the Adriatic from Germany without refueling.

Best wishes,

Michael

[healdav]

My uncle's ship was torpedoed and sunk with all hands in February 1918. In the Lloyds Register of merchant ships sunk by enemy action in WW1 the ship is named SS Eleanor.

The ship was 'hired' by the Royal Navy to carry munitions to the Mediterranean, and as a consequence its seamen were re-classified as RN personnel.

In tracing my Uncle's death certificate in the RN lists, I found that the ship was named MFA Eleanor. This must be the same ship, but I wonder what the initials stood for. Merchant Fleet Auxillary perhaps.

Could some kind and learned Pal help with this.

Thank you.

Tony

I find this statement rather surprising.

As far as I am aware anyone serving as a crew member on an MFA or RFA or any other ship takenmup from trade into RN service as a supply ship would remain a merchant seaman.

If your man was classified as RN I would have thought that he was probably a real RN seaman who was a part of a Naval party on the ship for some reason.

I'm not sure about the details of service by RN men on merchant ships at the time (as far as I am aware even the guns on a merchant ship were served by the normal crew), but merchant men would definitely not be automatically classified as RN just because the merchant ship was in RN service.

That is not the case even today.

In fact, it strikes me that it is just possible that your man was not a seaman at all. He could, I think, have been a civil servant working for one of the RN supply departments (there were three at the time and until the1965) and as a civilian and not on any list he would, as now, be given a naval rank and included in the RN lists with the title ....... (Naval Reserve, Special Duties) - or similar. I know that my old rank was Lieutenant Commander RNR (Special Duties) and I was an Hogher Executive Officer or Deputy Supply and Transport Officer in RN parlance at the time.

[Stephen Nulty]

Also perhaps worth considering (or being aware of) the T124 agreement. The following definition comes from CWGC descriptions of the RN memorials.

"At the outbreak of the Second World War, it was evident that the Royal Navy would not be able to man all the auxiliary vessels that would serve with it. To deal with the shortfall in manpower, a number of officers and men of the Merchant Navy agreed to serve with the Royal Navy under the terms of a T.124 agreement, which made them subject to Naval discipline while generally retaining their Merchant Navy rates of pay and other conditions. The manning port established to administer these men was at Liverpool. More than 13,000 seamen served under these conditions in various types of auxiliary vessels, at first mainly in armed merchant cruisers, but also in armed boarding vessels, cable ships, rescue tugs, and others on special service. "

Steve

[Kath]

RAIDERS OF THE DEEP: Lowell THOMAS, 1929.

From Chapter XXVll

Running the Dover Patrol.

Kath.

[healdav]

I'm not aware that there was a T124 procedure in WW1, but even if there was it does not mean that they were in the RN, just that they were subject to RN discipline.

[tonycad]

healdav,

See early posts in the Topic on Uncle Henry's Royal Navy background.

Uncle Henry was a donkey man in the Mercantile Marine. He is commemorated on the Swansea WW1 memorial, and was named under'Mercantile Marine Special Unit', which was the start of my research on his Mercantile Marine career.

At some point, his ship SS Eleanor was 'hired' by the Government, (as described by the Admiralty), to serve as mine carrier, and was re-titled Mercantile Fleet Auxilliary (MFA) Eleanor.

The details of his death at the GRO are given under the Royal Navy section, and he appears on the Royal Navy memorial to the missing at Plymouth. The clincher is that as he must have given his mother(my grandmother-god bless her) an allowance from his salary, she received a naval pension from 1918 to when she died in 1962 when she was in her 90's. As a point of interest she was invited to commute the pension in 1918, but refused as it was a reminder of her eldest son. Finally, I recall that in her later years she was visited annually by the pension authorities to see if she was managing on her pension.

Tony

[tonycad]

Michael Lowry.

Thank you for the infermation on Uberleutnant zur See Lohs and UB57.

I wouldn't like to push you, but I would be grateful for a scan of Lohs' account of sinking MFA Eleanora.

Would be so kind as to keep me informed of any future developments concerning the wreck of UB57

Thank you

Tony

[tonycad]

Michael Lowry,

I have just found your site uboat.net on the Web. It isa very interesting site with a lot of detail. Yes, I did find the page on Lohs.

Thank you

Tony