Company Sergeant Major bronze officer's cap badge 1915

[owen4256]

When the new rank of CSM was introduced in 1915, did the CSMs start to wear officer pattern bronze cap badges as opposed to the normal ORs pattern? Trying to identify individual from a photo in February/March 1915, wearing a greatcoat so rank insignia not visible. I already have enough officers in the picture and the context suggests the CSM as the most likely. Also not sure exactly when in 1915 the new rank was introduced.

 

Any help appreciated

 

Regards

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, owen4256 said:

When the new rank of CSM was introduced in 1915, did the CSMs start to wear officer pattern bronze cap badges as opposed to the normal ORs pattern? Trying to identify individual from a photo in February/March 1915, wearing a greatcoat so rank insignia not visible. I already have enough officers in the picture and the context suggests the CSM as the most likely. Also not sure exactly when in 1915 the new rank was introduced.

 

Any help appreciated

 

Regards

 

 

CSM (as a WO 2nd Class) was introduced in May 1915, and at the same time Warrant Officers were divided into two classes with all the original WOs (since 1881) automatically going to the 1st Class.

CSMs were never intended to wear Officer pattern uniform, or insignia, unlike the newly created (R)SM. They were however entitled to better quality bimetal badges, but war time supply (and the use of helmets in the line) meant that many did not bother unless regulars with an eye to their entitlement.  OSD insignia was not usually worn by any other ranks, but I have seen the occasional photo where such badges were worn in error.  One in particular was at an Irish infantry depot.

Edited 17 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[Wexflyer]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 OSD was not usually worn by any other ranks....

 

OSD = "One shot deal"...???

 

[MBrockway]

Officer's Service Dress

[Dragoon]

I have a photograph of my great grandfather as a Squadron Sgt Major wearing OR's badge, and then one of as RSM wearing bronze OSD cap badge, but not the full officers service dress, but as FROGSMILE said, a better quality uniform.

 

Chris

[owen4256]

Frogsmile, thank you for the date and the response on the badge. Latest date for photo. is 16 March so I can rule out the CSM. Thanks to all for your responses.

 

Regards

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, owen4256 said:

Frogsmile, thank you for the date and the response on the badge. Latest date for photo. is 16 March so I can rule out the CSM. Thanks to all for your responses.

 

Regards

 

 

Glad to help, there are some good comparators in the enclosed photos.

 

Notice that in the KRRC photo only the WO1 wears an officers pattern (cord boss) cap badge.  However, he still has only an OR's jacket.

 

The other photo shows an ASC WO1 towards the end of the war and he wears a full officer style uniform even down to a stepped, open collar and tie, something that would not be seen on an infantry WO1 at that time.  I think that he is probably either a 1st Class Staff Sergeant Major, or perhaps a Conductor during the period when badges of rank kept changing (between 1915 and 1918).  At that time both AOC and ASC had these very senior warrant officers.

 

Edited 18 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE

[MBrockway]

There is a good selection of relaxed 1/KRRC WO's, staff serjeants and serjeants in this post with pride of place being RSM Henry Tedder, MC and Bandmaster Thomas Brown.   The cheery chap between and behind them is the RQMS, who I have yet to identify 100%.

 

I've re-posted Drew-1918's main photo again here for convenience.  If you follow the link, the differences in dress and some close-ups are in the posts that follow it. 

 

Note for example that while RSM Tedder is wearing a high quality tailored version of the OR's jacket, Bandmaster Brown is in the officer's version.  The officer's style KRRC corded boss cap badge is worn by the WOI's and WOII's, with the WOI's in Sam Browne belts, but the standard Maltese cross by the staff serjeants and below.  The photo is 1919.

Mark

 

Edited 18 May , 2018 by MBrockway

[FROGSMILE]

That’s an interesting comparison with the other KRRC photo Mark and I think reflects the development of the CSM appointment.  Before 1915 the company Colour Sergeants did not have the same dress status as the battalion staff (sergeants), who had long had superior dress, carried swords and, before 1902, special undress headdress too.  Once the double company structure became permanent, with a CSM and CQMS, the former were granted that same status, and they began to wear swords (belts and slings that are still worn today) and also the officer pattern cap badge.   Your 1919 photo reflects this elevation in status.

[Andrew Upton]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Notice that in the KRRC photo only the WO1 wears an officers pattern (cord boss) cap badge.  However, he still has only an OR's jacket.

 

 

 

A modified OR's jacket though - note it has been altered to have lancer style V-cuffs (in a slightly different shade of khaki).

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

A modified OR's jacket though - note it has been altered to have lancer style V-cuffs (in a slightly different shade of khaki).

 

Yes that's an interesting aspect, subtle but significant.

[MBrockway]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s an interesting comparison with the other KRRC photo Mark and I think reflects the development of the CSM appointment.  Before 1915 the company Colour Sergeants did not have the same dress status as the battalion staff (sergeants), who had long had superior dress, carried swords and, before 1902, special undress headdress too.  Once the double company structure became permanent, with a CSM and CQMS, the former were granted that same status, and they began to wear swords (belts and slings that are still worn today) and also the officer pattern cap badge.   Your 1919 photo reflects this elevation in status.

Yep - fully agree 100%.  I had included the 1919 date to make that point, but reading my post again, I think you are right to make it more explicitly!

 

Interesting that the BM is in officer's jacket though eh?  I guess the role was rather a special case.

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

Yep - fully agree 100%.  I had included the 1919 date to make that point, but reading my post again, I think you are right to make it more explicitly!

 

Interesting that the BM is in officer's jacket though eh?  I guess the role was rather a special case.

 

 

Yes, reading about the history of the infantry band the BM always wore Officer style or premium level dress. His salary originally came from the officers’ band fund and he was invariably a foreigner, often German, or Austrian.

Edited 18 May , 2018 by FROGSMILE