Guardsman or Private

[Steven Broomfield]

Trooper.

 

 

[593jones]

Thank you, Mr. B.

[TwoEssGee]

Getting back to the original question asked Pausid, who is probably as bamboozled as I am by all these Riflemen, Kingsmen and Troopers. Hopefully this will provide some clarification (and hopefully it is accurate).

 

On 22 November 1918 King George V announced that, as "a mark of his Majesty's appreciation and pride of the splendid services rendered by The Brigade of Guards during the war" the rank of 'Private' in the 5 Regiments of Foot Guards would be replaced with the rank 'Guardsman'. As far as I can see, this was with immediate effect.

 

This information obviously took some time to filter down through the Army and to the War Graves Commission and to the people still working in the field tending the wounded, recovering the fallen, the burial parties, stonemason etc., so it is understandable that there was some confusion and some mistakes were made.

 

The CWGC must have become aware that some of their records incorrectly had some men who were killed or died during the war recorded as 'Guardsman' when in reality they had only ever been 'Private'. Some years ago I downloaded the complete CWGC list of Scots Guards casualties and noticed that many men had been listed incorrectly as 'Guardsman'. I corrected them on my spreadsheet, so cannot give a specific figure, but it could have been around 50-60. I looked today, and not one single Scots Guards soldier killed or died before 1 January 1919 is listed as 'Guardsman', they are all 'Private', including the 16 men who died after the King's announcement on 22 November 1918, but before 1 January 1919, who technically were 'Guardsmen'.  The last Scots Guards Private is listed as Pte 9833 J Swan (died 22 December 1918), and the first Scots 'Guardsman' is Gdsm 12487 DC Rough (Died 7 January 1919). So, sometime in recent years someone at CWGC has altered these records and has probably used 1 January 1919 as the starting date for the change. Why they used that date, I cannot answer. I had a look at the other Guards Regiments, and again there are no Guardsmen listed before 1 January 1919, and I suspect that their records have also been amended.

 

So, after all that, the answer to your question is that it appears that some headstones were incorrectly carved, or might have been created after the King's announcement, but the fact remains that during the War, and up to 22 November 1918 all private soldiers in the Guards regiments were 'Private' and after that date they all became 'Guardsman'.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited 11 May , 2018 by TwoEssGee

[Derek Black]

1 hour ago, TwoEssGee said:

I looked today, and not one single Scots Guards soldier killed or died before 1 January 1919 is listed as 'Guardsman', they are all 'Private', including the 16 men who died after the King's announcement on 22 November 1918, but before 1 January 1919, who technically were 'Guardsmen'.  The last Scots Guards Private is listed as Pte 9833 J Swan (died 22 December 1918), and the first Scots 'Guardsman' is Gdsm 12487 DC Rough (Died 7 January 1919). So, sometime in recent years someone at CWGC has altered these records and has probably used 1 January 1919 as the starting date for the change. Why they used that date, I cannot answer. I had a look at the other Guards Regiments, and again there are no Guardsmen listed before 1 January 1919, and I suspect that their records have also been amended.

Well I never....

I have 12487 Duncan Campbell Rough's Victory Medal.
One of only a handful I've ever acquired.

I'm not a collector as such, I once tried to get a medal representing each Scottish regiment for a display, other things got in the way and I was a few regiments short.
I didn't know he was a war casualty until after I bought the medal, I was only after an example from each.

In Rough's Paybook Will he writes his own rank as Private on two occasions.
On the War Return for his death he is listed with other 1918 and 1919 deaths as a Guardsman, but on the same page two 1915 deaths are listed as Privates
His medal gives private.

He was born in 1899 in Glasgow and his mother lived in the Shettleston district at the time of his death, which was as a result of several factors.

Cheers,
Derek.

[TwoEssGee]

Very interesting Derek.

 

I wonder when the first medal issued to a Guards soldier (presumably sometime after WW1) showed their rank to be Gdsm.

I'm not a collector (never felt comfortable having someone else's medals, to be honest), so I have no idea when the change came about.

Maybe some of the medal collectors will be able to answer this?

 

As an aside, the 'company' I used to work for have premises at the corner of Shettleston Road and Chester Street. Very few old buildings in that area have survived, but it still remains Rough territory

[MBrockway]

As further evidence of how annoyed Riflemen were about being classified by Officialdom as Private, see this I recently spotted on a British War Medal acknowledgement receipt - having very pointedly listed his Rank as Rfn, the soldier has added in manuscript

 

"Sir,

Regret Private substituted for rifleman on edge of medal"

 

I love these chance glimpses into character

 

Mark